Carsley’s England?

[Omegstrat6]

I stand corrected by 68 on Carsley's reason for not singing the national anthem (though I personally find it a bit strange ) but would, however, understand if a manager of an England team who was not English themselves did not join in.

I do have sympathy for baggiematt's point of view but the singing of the national anthem is a traditional part of international games and a mark of pride and respect. You can surely disagree with decisions a government makes on behalf of your country but still have pride and respect for its culture so why not sing it (even if you have a c rap singing voice &#128513 if you are playing to represent your country?

The only reason for not singing it perhaps, as Mick and others have pointed out, is that our own national anthem is so obviously entwined with supporting the Royal family and you do not have to believe in the concept of monarchy to have pride/respect for your country. The song was composed in 1745 apparently by the band leader of the Theatre Royal in Dury Lane as a patriotic response to the threat of Prince Charles Edward Stuart (the Young Pretender)who had just defeated the army of George II near Edinburgh. This fit of patriotism spread (even though the King, of course, was of born in Hanover and of German descent!) and the anthem was taken up by others. By the early 1800s it had become the country's national anthem, used especially to greet the monarch and it's style fitted in well with the coming culture of empire and all the pomp and praise of monarchy that went with it.

As for baggieAl's comment about flags, I think it is a good thing that Starmer, for example, has gone out of his way to be seen with the Union Jack behind him wherever possible but a great shame that the English Cross of St. George (though derived from a Christian martyr who was neither a knight nor British) now has popular connotations with the Far Right. The flags of the red cross on white field that I do see (outside of when we stumble into the closing stages of a World Cup&#128513 are generally only flown in the properties of patriotic veterans but it's a pity that many who might otherwise fly them do not do so because of its appropriation by the racist far right. How we get it back, I don't know.

Like every country, the UK has been led to do things that we should not be proud of but over all I believe that there is much to celebrate in our culture and history. The Union Jack not only represents the country but should also be a symbol of its unity and inclusiveness -the reasons, I am sure, that Starmer is so keen to be seen with it.

[Albionic68]

........Like every country, the UK has been led to do things that we should not be proud of but over all I believe that there is much to celebrate in our culture and history. The Union Jack not only represents the country but should also be a symbol of its unity and inclusiveness -the reasons, I am sure, that Starmer is so keen to be seen with it.

Well whatever he does I suggest Starmer doesn't wrap a symbol of unity and inclusiveness otherwise known as a Union Jack around his shoulders on any upcoming state visits to the Republic of Ireland where it's still referred to as the Butcher's Apron 😉.

[baggiematt]

I do have sympathy for baggiematt's point of view but the singing of the national anthem is a traditional part of international games and a mark of pride and respect. You can surely disagree with decisions a government makes on behalf of your country but still have pride and respect for its culture so why not sing it (even if you have a c rap singing voice &#128513 if you are playing to represent your country?

A lot of peoples values are changing where tradition is less followed or respected these days Omeg. It's understandable as tradition has previously been used to justify wrongs or get people to do something without rationale. Bull fighting in Spain is justified as tradition...

I get your point though. Tradition should always be a choice IMO; hence why it's not enforced.