English identity?

[MadAmster]

Both flags pertaining to England are seen as racist symbols. We, apart from sporting successes in rowing, swimming, cycling and a few other sports aside, we aren't the best at much these days. Education seems to be of a lower standard. We're no longer a leading nation in invention or innovation. I could go on. We've been caught up and overtaken and it's probably down to lack of investment in England/UK by the 1% (yes, my old hobbyhorse). There isn't the money available, research units are not as numerous or as well funded as they were and it IS the 1% and HMG that funds them.

[ramAnag]

The problem Robert Jenrick has in defining Englishness is two-fold:

firstly, national identity comprises hundreds of habits, opinions, beliefs, attitudes of minds, most to be savoured, some regretted, and some unique/almost unique, some shared widely. ThatÂ’s not possible to define in a crisp soundbite. I could write 10,000 words if you want but it still wouldnÂ’t get there

Secondly, any definition he did/does utter is bound to be derided by those who either seek to belittle him or his political position (example: yourself), who seek to diminish the importance of England/Englishness as a thing. GP intimates this in his first response

Although I don’t agree with use of the phrase ‘metropolitan elite’ I do believe there is a ‘collective’ who’s intention, either directly or indirectly, to make England as un-English as quickly as possible. I don’t see the same (yet) in the two other countries I spend a decent amount of time in

Andy, there was nothing in my post that belittled Jenrick. He brought the subject up but then struggled to define it.
I’m simply asking…what is meant by ‘Englishness’, by English values because I really do wonder.
You have a chip on your shoulder about diminishing the ‘England/Englishness’ thing but how can we ‘diminish’ something we can’t define in the first place?
There are things I think of as being peculiarly and positively English, eg cricket, afternoon tea, typical English pubs, fish and chips…but as for values I really don’t know.
Curiously, when abroad and especially recently, I seem to have been regularly mistaken for being Dutch or German…possibly because I’m quite tall, fair haired and endeavour to always be polite. The first two are obviously physical…the other, sadly, I recognise more in the Dutch and Germans abroad than in Brits.

[Geoff Parkstone]

rA"Curiously, when abroad and especially recently, I seem to have been regularly mistaken for being ....German" possibly because you invaded Poland?

[Trickytreesreds]

The problem Robert Jenrick has in defining Englishness is two-fold:

firstly, national identity comprises hundreds of habits, opinions, beliefs, attitudes of minds, most to be savoured, some regretted, and some unique/almost unique, some shared widely. ThatÂ’s not possible to define in a crisp soundbite. I could write 10,000 words if you want but it still wouldnÂ’t get there

Secondly, any definition he did/does utter is bound to be derided by those who either seek to belittle him or his political position (example: yourself), who seek to diminish the importance of England/Englishness as a thing. GP intimates this in his first response

Although I don’t agree with use of the phrase ‘metropolitan elite’ I do believe there is a ‘collective’ who’s intention, either directly or indirectly, to make England as un-English as quickly as possible. I don’t see the same (yet) in the two other countries I spend a decent amount of time in

That is definitely true. There is a drive to ridicule and water down what being English is. Some politicians think having national pride is a curse and pour scorn on it, English history tends to be used as a negative in many ways.

As I have said before, I have Scottish relatives and they are Scottish first and British second. Try that down here and you get scowled at.
Scots love their traditions, from the kilt to bagpipes.

i would also add the Welsh into that mould as well. They adore their flag and spend a massive amount of time preserving their native language and history.

The problem with the home nations, is that England now has a massive population of multi nationals compared to the other 3
Politicians play up to that and would sooner not play the England card and push it aside.
We even have Charles, who made it known, that he wanted to be known as defender of the faiths? Even though the other faiths neither need or want his defence.

When I am abroad I am British, but English born. The Union flag is the representation of that for me.

[ramAnag]

That is definitely true. There is a drive to ridicule and water down what being English is. Some politicians think having national pride is a curse and pour scorn on it

So…what is ‘being English’, how is it ‘ridiculed’ and ‘watered down’ and what bits of it are you actually proud of?

You clearly share Jenrick’s stance but seem no better at explaining what ‘being English’ actually means.

[Andy_Faber]

Both flags pertaining to England are seen as racist symbols.

By who? Certainly not Nottingham City Council for instance, who erected a massive flag of st George in Market Square. You can be sure they would not want to be associated with a racist symbol. Likewise I’ve just seen the Union flag raised to celebrate a sporting win by an English sportsman and his English team. Again Neither they nor the governing body of the sport would want to be associated with a racist symbol.

Both are national flags hijacked by a small band of oiks, their use then amplified by the media and such amplification adopted by the gullible and those with an anti-right leaning. Just IMO

[Ramshank72]

I have one tattooed on my arm, as well as a ram. I'm neither EDL or DLF.
There will always be people who hijack these things for misuse...

[ramAnag]

By who? Certainly not Nottingham City Council for instance, who erected a massive flag of st George in Market Square. You can be sure they would not want to be associated with a racist symbol. Likewise I’ve just seen the Union flag raised to celebrate a sporting win by an English sportsman and his English team. Again Neither they nor the governing body of the sport would want to be associated with a racist symbol.

Both are national flags hijacked by a small band of oiks, their use then amplified by the media and such amplification adopted by the gullible and those with an anti-right leaning. Just IMO

I think you’re right…the English and Union flags aren’t actually ‘racist symbols’ but they have, as RS suggests - at least I think he was talking about the flags and not his arms - been ‘hijacked for misuse’.

By who? By the National Front and their like since the early seventies and by football hooligans of the same era. The latter may be changing as the more modern flag draped fans do not seem so synonymous with bad behaviour, but the former remains sadly true and I do genuinely resent such ‘hijacking’ of a national symbol so that a collection of English flags now appears more sinister than ‘patriotic’.

[Andy_Faber]

I think you’re right…the English and Union flags aren’t actually ‘racist symbols’ but they have, as RS suggests - at least I think he was talking about the flags and not his arms - been ‘hijacked for misuse’.

By who? By the National Front and their like since the early seventies and by football hooligans of the same era. The latter may be changing as the more modern flag draped fans do not seem so synonymous with bad behaviour, but the former remains sadly true and I do genuinely resent such ‘hijacking’ of a national symbol so that a collection of English flags now appears more sinister than ‘patriotic’.

Agreed until the last two lines IMO, going back to GPs response to your opinion on NFs ‘bigotry’, the view of the flags as sinister is in the eye of the beholder. I see it /them as a symbol of my country, which I love, not sinister at all. It’s their hijackers that are sinister

[ramAnag]

Agreed until the last two lines IMO, going back to GPs response to your opinion on NFs ‘bigotry’, the view of the flags as sinister is in the eye of the beholder. I see it /them as a symbol of my country, which I love, not sinister at all. It’s their hijackers that are sinister

Bit pedantic, AF, but, to clarify…when I see the English or British flag raised in celebration/acknowledgement of sporting/Olympic victory I feel some degree of pride. When I see it carried by those who support the NF/EDL etc or associated with football related violence I feel only anger, resentment and, depending on circumstances, some small degree of fear.

To add a third category (which I doubt you’ll like) when I see those - often elderly people - enthusiastically waving their mini Union Jacks at a variety of, usually Royal, occasions I can’t help thinking they look a bit bonkers and hope they get home safely.