Election Year or Fear!

[Andy_Faber]

tell me, hand on heart, that anyone other than a blinkered fool would vote for him.

the credibility of any argument you have just falls away when you blanket 20m people as such. Of course some people vote for him (or any person/party/cause for that matter) in a knee jerk or entrenched fashion (it sounds like you would) but the vast majority would have given it some deep thought.

[ramAnag]

the credibility of any argument you have just falls away when you blanket 20m people as such. Of course some people vote for him (or any person/party/cause for that matter) in a knee jerk or entrenched fashion (it sounds like you would) but the vast majority would have given it some deep thought.

Sometimes you have to stand up and be counted, AF.
Deep thought? You really think that someone who advocated injecting disinfectant as a method of curing Covid, who thought, because he considers himself a ‘star’ that ‘grabbing a woman by the p*ssy’ is okay, who instigated insurrection after his last electoral defeat and who is a convicted felon is fit to be the leader of the ‘free world’?
He’s not…and just those four examples alone should tell you it’s patently obvious that he’s not.
There are plenty of others and I’d have thought you’d have learned from Johnson's example, when it was pointed out, time and time again, that he was a lying, dishonest narcissist.
Look what happened there.

[Andy_Faber]

Sometimes you have to stand up and be counted, AF.
Deep thought? You really think that someone who advocated injecting disinfectant as a method of curing Covid, who thought, because he considers himself a ‘star’ that ‘grabbing a woman by the p*ssy’ is okay, who instigated insurrection after his last electoral defeat and who is a convicted felon is fit to be the leader of the ‘free world’?
He’s not…and just those four examples alone should tell you it’s patently obvious that he’s not.
There are plenty of others and I’d have thought you’d have learned from Johnson's example, when it was pointed out, time and time again, that he was a lying, dishonest narcissist.
Look what happened there.

Clearly some folk can put that to one side if they believe he can lead their country to prosperity. He's not asking you out on a date rA, he's asking if you trust him to improve your personal prosperity. Spin it round, imagine in five years time if yer typical voter is noticeably poorer than he is now under a democratic administration, do you think he'll say 'Well I can't afford to feed my kids but wow, that Harris woman is sooo personable'...

[ramAnag]

Clearly some folk can put that to one side if they believe he can lead their country to prosperity. He's not asking you out on a date rA, he's asking if you trust him to improve your personal prosperity. Spin it round, imagine in five years time if yer typical voter is noticeably poorer than he is now under a democratic administration, do you think he'll say 'Well I can't afford to feed my kids but wow, that Harris woman is sooo personable'...

It’s called integrity, AF. He has none. Nothing to do with being ‘personable’. I can’t imagine anyone being allowed to remain in any position of authority with his track record let alone as leader of the ‘free world’.

Tricky…saying that Islam/Blair are as bad is a non argument. I don’t agree with how Blair lied - though prior to that I thought he was the best PM of my lifetime - and I don’t agree with many aspects of Islam, but we’re not talking about them…this conversation is about Trump’s suitability to be PotUS and, imo, he is a deranged individual totally devoid of integrity.

[swaledale]

It’s called integrity, AF. He has none. Nothing to do with being ‘personable’. I can’t imagine anyone being allowed to remain in any position of authority with his track record let alone as leader of the ‘free world’.

TrickyÂ…saying that Islam/Blair are as bad is a non argument. I donÂ’t agree with how Blair lied - though prior to that I thought he was the best PM of my lifetime - and I donÂ’t agree with many aspects of Islam, but weÂ’re not talking about themÂ…this conversation is about TrumpÂ’s suitability to be PotUS and, imo, he is a deranged individual totally devoid of integrity.

RA, your not making the distinction between those that enable Trump, those who are no fools, and should and do know better, but see him as the path to power despite his undoubted flaws and indeed unscrupulous, criminal behaviour and the average voter who swallows the rhetoric, which appeals to their narrow perspective. AF is actually right in what he says, peoples concerns are very parochial, especially so in the US where millions have little knowledge or awareness of what happens elsewhere in the world or indeed give a toss.

The appeal of the populist is that they offer simple solutions to complex issues, in reality they often offer no solutions just broad unsubstantiated claims, which sound attractive to the majority of what in the US is a very unsophisticated voter base. I mean people who think having 10 days a holiday a year, piss poor wages and very basic health care, whilst an elite enjoy massive salaries and all the perks (of which Trump and his entourage are ironically a part of) and don't think that's odd clearly aren't deep thinkers.

Populists by their nature appear attractive to many because they appeal to be "different", they position themselves as being "one of them" - again Trump with his inherited wealth and lifestyle is about as far from being an ordinary American as one can get, but given the ordinary American doesn't actually think that deeply, they don't care. Somebody different from the rest of the political class is offering them something different, no matter that last time he was in power he didn't actually achieve much that changed things to their extremely simple view of life he might.

Your not wrong to class many of these voters as fools, because that's one of the problems politicians have the world over, the majority of the electorate aren't that bright or actually bothered about thinking deeply about matters, they want a politician that provides the things they value. Lets face it capitalism as it currently operates wouldn't succeed if people actually thought deeply about it, the populists know that if they can keep the majority happy either by lies or bribes, then they can continue to enjoy power and their lifestyles in plain sight.

We really haven't come that far from the peasants being kept in order by a small powerful cabal and indeed that's where Musk and Trump and the others would like to return to. The irony being that Musk and others like him, have openly said that people are too stupid for democracy, they want totalitarian regimes, the benevolent dictator because they know the vast majority of people are either not bothered or too stupid to understand the ramifications.

[ramAnag]

RA, your not making the distinction between those that enable Trump, those who are no fools, and should and do know better, but see him as the path to power despite his undoubted flaws and indeed unscrupulous, criminal behaviour and the average voter who swallows the rhetoric, which appeals to their narrow perspective. AF is actually right in what he says, peoples concerns are very parochial, especially so in the US where millions have little knowledge or awareness of what happens elsewhere in the world or indeed give a toss.

The appeal of the populist is that they offer simple solutions to complex issues, in reality they often offer no solutions just broad unsubstantiated claims, which sound attractive to the majority of what in the US is a very unsophisticated voter base. I mean people who think having 10 days a holiday a year, piss poor wages and very basic health care, whilst an elite enjoy massive salaries and all the perks (of which Trump and his entourage are ironically a part of) and don't think that's odd clearly aren't deep thinkers.

Populists by their nature appear attractive to many because they appeal to be "different", they position themselves as being "one of them" - again Trump with his inherited wealth and lifestyle is about as far from being an ordinary American as one can get, but given the ordinary American doesn't actually think that deeply, they don't care. Somebody different from the rest of the political class is offering them something different, no matter that last time he was in power he didn't actually achieve much that changed things to their extremely simple view of life he might.

Your not wrong to class many of these voters as fools, because that's one of the problems politicians have the world over, the majority of the electorate aren't that bright or actually bothered about thinking deeply about matters, they want a politician that provides the things they value. Lets face it capitalism as it currently operates wouldn't succeed if people actually thought deeply about it, the populists know that if they can keep the majority happy either by lies or bribes, then they can continue to enjoy power and their lifestyles in plain sight.

We really haven't come that far from the peasants being kept in order by a small powerful cabal and indeed that's where Musk and Trump and the others would like to return to. The irony being that Musk and others like him, have openly said that people are too stupid for democracy, they want totalitarian regimes, the benevolent dictator because they know the vast majority of people are either not bothered or too stupid to understand the ramifications.

We overlapped, Swale. Agree with the vast majority of those well made points, not least the dilemma between the theoretical values of democracy v enlightened despotism, but we aren’t there (yet?) and at the moment my brain can only deal with the possibilities and dangers of what is likely to happen across the Atlantic in the next three weeks or so.
As I’ve probably said before…having close family over there, remembering the scenes in Washington when Trump lost and being mindful of some of the ‘threats’ already made my fears are personal as well as political.

[Trickytreesreds]

Sometimes you have to stand up and be counted, AF.
Deep thought? You really think that someone who advocated injecting disinfectant as a method of curing Covid, who thought, because he considers himself a ‘star’ that ‘grabbing a woman by the p*ssy’ is okay, who instigated insurrection after his last electoral defeat and who is a convicted felon is fit to be the leader of the ‘free world’?
He’s not…and just those four examples alone should tell you it’s patently obvious that he’s not.
There are plenty of others and I’d have thought you’d have learned from Johnson's example, when it was pointed out, time and time again, that he was a lying, dishonest narcissist.
Look what happened there.

But in the whole, your argument falls down, as it is spread across the board.
You have labelled Trump a mysoginist many times among other things, yet fail to acknowledge my dislike of Islam in the same mould, as it actively preaches mysoginistic behaviour? Is it that Trump being right wing, is your sole motive for the contempt?
If you are going to call it out, then you must across the board. There are many Muslims across the world in leaders positions, who are active followers of Islam and treat women badly.

Johnson? a Lying narcissist? Well, he wouldn't be on his own would he? Blair? The current one, is well on the way, to earning the champions belt.
But when its a left representative doing it, the tone definitely dies down and doesn't seem such a good weapon after all?

[swaledale]

the credibility of any argument you have just falls away when you blanket 20m people as such. Of course some people vote for him (or any person/party/cause for that matter) in a knee jerk or entrenched fashion (it sounds like you would) but the vast majority would have given it some deep thought.

If you actually truly believe that the vast majority of Trump or indeed Farage supporters would have given it some deep thought before voting for either of them, then sadly I have to conclude that you are one of the fools.

This is further evidenced by your concluding from RA's post that it sounds like he would vote on the basis of a knee jerk or entrenched fashion. When its clear if your capable of reading what he posts, that that is far from the case.

Its rather sad when one is unable to distinguish between politicians that may have a different view or philosophy and those that have identified the way to power is to appeal to the ignorant and the prejudiced and feed them falsehoods.

So I might not like Thatcher or Major's political view point and indeed may think Thatcher's philosophy unpleasant, but one could never accuse them of behaving like Johnson, or Farage or Trump, in spreading deliberate lies, knowing they were lie. In inciting contempt and hatred for the very systems that make a democracy function.

Mm I've long known your true colours, but now you are actually revealing them openly. Rather sad really.