O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[OchPie]

With regards to your point about Thatcher (Geoffrey Howe) increasing VAT rate from 8% to 15%, you neglect to add that there were two VAT rates then and one of them was previously at 25%, as set by the previous Labour government (Denis Healey).

I "neglected to add" it because Healey reduced it again to 12.5% in 1976. It was 25% for less than a year and a half. So even when Howe abolished it, the rate went up.

[SinceSept1959]

Really.

If your birth year is in your handle, yes you've got a few years on me. Less than two decades, more than one. I've worked for what I have too. That's generally the way it works. It's true the Tories left a lot of workers on the scrapheap, shameful really. But it's what they do.

I've also met a lot of politicians. Heads of state. Ministers. All around the world. Labour like all parties has had its ups and downs, and far too many people in politics haven't really worked outside of politics. I have. I've seen the best and the worst of the world.

Maybe in time, you'll realise that people have got richer and more fearful as they get older. More concerned about protecting what they have, less open to risks. But thanks to how difficult it's become for the young to do that, they're not really turning conservative as they get older any more. I saw it starting in my generation. The one behind me - reached or heading into their 30s - it's impossible to ignore.

For your information ,Labour closed more coal mines than the Tories and Labour.
Labour also implemented the Beeching Report to implement mass railway closures (causing hardship to communities) akin to industrial vandalism of the Victorian engineering legacy.
There were allegations at the time that the spouse of a certain Labour minister made a huge fortune out of civil engineering and road building programmes.
Thank them, for the clogged roads , accident carnage, pollution and health problems which leftist campaigners and politicians are so keen to eradicate.
Still 800 + private jets flying our dear leaders and others to the annual pilgrimage in Davos, doesn't cause any pollution issues at all ?
It's all the fault of those selfish motorists ?

[SinceSept1959]

And you blame those "declining standards, morals and respect in this country, not withstanding the vast chasms between the super wealthy and those in poverty" on the Labour party????

For someone who claims to have wisdom, how did you manage to miss the destruction that 14 years of Tory rule did to this country?

If you take off your red tinted glasses and socialist halo you might be able to see more clearly and apply some logic to your contribution.
As you well know or should know, the decline in standards started well before the 14 recent Tory Government years.
Kids growing up in the 50's & 60's were brought up to respect their parents, grandparents, elderly people, females , The Law, the church and the 10 commandments.
The decline certainly started with trendy professors, career educationalists and lawyers undermining authority , parents , discipline and protocols. A certain Boston, USA professor in 1968 might be worth some research.
Sid the Silversmith (Labour) also made a monumental contribution to sentencing in 1967.
The destruction of this country was unquestionably exacerbated by Blair and his ilk.
The famous Solzhenitsyn quote illustrates the definition of a society.
" When criminals go free and policing opponents are imprisoned ........?

[Elite_Pie]

As you well know or should know, the decline in standards started well before the 14 recent Tory Government years.

So did those 14 years of the Tories improve standards? Or did they drag the country into the gutter?

[SinceSept1959]

So did those 14 years of the Tories improve standards? Or did they drag the country into the gutter?

I could offer you a menu of "word salad, " ala Mrs Balls or Ms Cooper , but I'm not a politician and don't lie either.

The Tories hardly dragged "the country into the gutter " but if you think that's the case, I hope that after five years of this shower , we're not submerged, deep, into the cess pit and still have a country we can vaguely recognise.
Under three terms of Blairism, standards certainly declined , but the fortunes of himself, his family and HR Lawyers , certainly improved?.
The fact remains, that under every Labour PM the economy has been trashed rather than improved.

As is often quoted ,
" Socialism works until they've run out of everyone else's money!"
Not since Harold Wilson, has any Labour Gov't been remotely socialist. Merely a different colour of capitalists without the necessary nous.

[OP67]

So did those 14 years of the Tories improve standards? Or did they drag the country into the gutter?

If you think we're in the gutter now where do you think we'll be in 5 years time? Genuine question.

[Elite_Pie]

The Tories hardly dragged "the country into the gutter "

For centuries Great Britain had a reputation for truth, decency and fairness. Brexit and Boris Johnson managed to trash that once proud reputation in just a couple of years, where lies and deceit became what we were known for. Europe in particular doesn't like us much, and with good reason.

[Elite_Pie]

If you think we're in the gutter now where do you think we'll be in 5 years time? Genuine question.

Slowly climbing out of the gutter. Genuine answer.

[SinceSept1959]

I "neglected to add" it because Healey reduced it again to 12.5% in 1976. It was 25% for less than a year and a half. So even when Howe abolished it, the rate went up.

Sorry , post in response to Och Pie not Lullapie.

Not just the Tories throwing workers on the scrap heap but much of our jobs were already leaving our shores in the early seventies.
Much of the "blame" for our decline can certainly be traced back to Heath and the non referendal entry into the EEC. No voting mandate to seek entry and an ambiguous question definition, of the ratification voting mandate in 1975 !
Add the fact that labour overheads were restricted by Conservatives but profligated under Labour , jobs exported overseas and industries disappeared.
The EU took full advantage of favouring the interests of certain nations and pillaging the UK in the process.
Stanton Iron Works for example once employed 9,000 people.
The EU claimed that Europe couldn't compete with Asian countries, producing steel and an 18% cut in production was merited. France & Germany apparently had a net reduction of 0.5% each and the UK lost 17% of capacity.
Milliband imposing bans on Oil Exploration, Coal mining in West Cumbria and the inability to produce our own steel in quantity should be a matter of concern.?
Strange that we are hell bent on eradicating our 1% emissions but quite happy to import Steel from China and India etc despite their high emissions and expansion of their coal mines ?
Not to mention forcing family farmers out of business and erecting solar panel farms and electricity pylons on arable farm lands in the UK !

The sell offs, of State owned utilities under Thatcher and the decision to become dependant on Financial and Service Industries has also benefitted Europe to the detriment of our own working people in terms of job prospects.
Older citizens no doubt have fond memories of life in the UK prior to joining the EU.
Those negotiating to reverse Brexit, for a future referendum, are no doubt quite happy with the recent WFA cuts and other ageist measures against the quality of life for senior citizens ?
One might wonder why ?

[Med Pie]

For centuries Great Britain had a reputation for truth, decency and fairness. Brexit and Boris Johnson managed to trash that once proud reputation in just a couple of years, where lies and deceit became what we were known for. Europe in particular doesn't like us much, and with good reason.

That's nothing to do with Brexit, ok, it maybe made them dislike us even more but the French in particular have always hated us, they even veto'd our first application to join what was then the Common market.

What the EU allowed, was the importation of cheap labour and the export of what were once, well paying jobs to poorer nations where they could pay people less. Off the top of my head, was it Nissan who moved their entire, operation to Poland?