O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[OchPie]

Depending exactly how you define it, I've lived in more countries than a lot of people have visited. I don't think there's anything about it that makes someone superior, but it can be an eye-opener and help put into context choices that are made (or sometimes, not even made) in your own society.

The "far right" being referred to is clearly the EDL and Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon, as well as some of the more fascistic tendencies of Reform UK and remarkably, the near-full fash that Robert Jenrick has recently embraced. Many of my Tory friends are horrified by what their party now is (just as many Republican friends in the US have been over Trump).

I was also confused as to how anyone could say the Sturmabteilung were "the good Nazis" (because they killed Communists in the street?), but then I remembered Strasserism arguably inspired quite a lot of the National Front.

Sadly, you don't have to look far to find the far right.

[slack_pie]

Just remember folks

It was people like you and me that got hitler into power

It was the people that were lied to, and told immergrants were to blame.

It was the people who decided that the politicians ****ing up the country weren't to blame.

The nazis had some good ones (according to idiots here), that it was a working class, normal party.

It wasn't, every day people were brain washed into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTlAYCGAHpc

You could say the exact same thing for the communist parties that inflicted so much misery, bloodshed, and horror on their own people during the 20th Century. The gulag guards, Stalin's henchmen, the Stasi, the neighbours who informed on each other - they were all people just like us too.

We should be vigilant about extremists on both sides of the spectrum. Both the far right and the far left end up in the same place. The media and other people tend to see the "far right" everywhere these days, and my concern is that it's just becoming yet another way to end a debate with those they disagree with (like "racist", "bigot", etc.). Some people genuinely are far right/racist/bigots, but most people aren't. If those terms are used in a blanket way to label anyone who doesn't align with the liberal status quo, they start to lose all meaning.

[maddogslater]

A sensible reply slack, when people have little to hope for and little to lose, we end up with the nazis or communism

[HeroPie1862]

You could say the exact same thing for the communist parties that inflicted so much misery, bloodshed, and horror on their own people during the 20th Century. The gulag guards, Stalin's henchmen, the Stasi, the neighbours who informed on each other - they were all people just like us too.

We should be vigilant about extremists on both sides of the spectrum. Both the far right and the far left end up in the same place. The media and other people tend to see the "far right" everywhere these days, and my concern is that it's just becoming yet another way to end a debate with those they disagree with (like "racist", "bigot", etc.). Some people genuinely are far right/racist/bigots, but most people aren't. If those terms are used in a blanket way to label anyone who doesn't align with the liberal status quo, they start to lose all meaning.

It's a disappointment that communism doesn't work because as human nature constantly shows, when someone can get that much power, it's often taken advantage of, and when it comes to trying to point at Stalin as a left wing idealogy gone wrong, sure for the 1930's he was left wing but by todays standards he was actually pretty right - the laissez-faire economic libralism was basically a radically left position, but in 2025 nobody would recognise it as such, it would almost universally be regarded as a right wing position.

That isn't to say that his crimes weren't motivated by a left wing idealogy though, but things like the secret police weren't inventions of Stalin, it was due to right wing totalitarian backlash of the tsars who created the Okhrana, and they created the surveillance state that would deport folks to Siberia, and they created the first artifical famines in the late 1800s...

The worse oppresions of that regime weren't originally Soviet, it's tricky because the oppressions they were famous for were created by radically reactionary schemes in the 19th century, and that's a flaw that a lot of revolutions have - as it's much harder to lead a government in a perfect idealogy than it is to overthrow the leaders of an oppressive one.

And the far right is everywhere now-a-days, social media has enabled it; because of people like Trump, ignorance is a valid form of politics and it's nothing close to the actual discussions of old and it's full of hate and disgust for things people don't fully understand, lies are everywhere and people often believe them because they never do their own research and like to be spoon fed these "facts", and through that ignorance is where people are labelled racists and bigots - because they often are both racists and bigots.

Like people attempting to call me out for saying I heard racism around me - I've reported it now, it was racism, but attacking people who say something is racism is one way of silencing people, effectively bullying them towards allowing that behaviour to become normalised and it isn't okay - people should never be scared to call out bull**** when they see it, from both sides, but bullying - like from one **** on this forum, a major example tbh - is never okay, and should be frowned upon by both sides of the spectrum.

edit: TL DR the Stalin yap -

Stalin and Lenin inherited a state full of deeply oppressive machinery and they didn't dismantle it, they used it to further their own goals.

And Lenin actually attempted to justify the oppressions as temporary, and stated after the revolution had actually happened that they would be dismantled however they never were by his death, they both just reproduced and strengthened the tools the tsars used.

edit 2: And it is true, you can say the same - however right wing hate is becoming more accepted by populists and it can very quickly turn itself to oppression and should be refused at all costs - what we're seeing in ours, US and a lot of European politics is essentially what happened to lead to the nazis to power in the first place.

The only way you can stop facism is to call it out, and refuse to become apart of that system and preach it as unacceptable - which it is.

[MarcusCole]

It's a disappointment that communism doesn't work because as human nature constantly shows, when someone can get that much power, it's often taken advantage of, and when it comes to trying to point at Stalin as a left wing idealogy gone wrong, sure for the 1930's he was left wing but by todays standards he was actually pretty right - the laissez-faire economic libralism was basically a radically left position, but in 2025 nobody would recognise it as such, it would almost universally be regarded as a right wing position.

That isn't to say that his crimes weren't motivated by a left wing idealogy though, but things like the secret police weren't inventions of Stalin, it was due to right wing totalitarian backlash of the tsars who created the Okhrana, and they created the surveillance state that would deport folks to Siberia, and they created the first artifical famines in the late 1800s...

The worse oppresions of that regime weren't originally Soviet, it's tricky because the oppressions they were famous for were created by radically reactionary schemes in the 19th century, and that's a flaw that a lot of revolutions have - as it's much harder to lead a government in a perfect idealogy than it is to overthrow the leaders of an oppressive one.

And the far right is everywhere now-a-days, social media has enabled it; because of people like Trump, ignorance is a valid form of politics and it's nothing close to the actual discussions of old and it's full of hate and disgust for things people don't fully understand, lies are everywhere and people often believe them because they never do their own research and like to be spoon fed these "facts", and through that ignorance is where people are labelled racists and bigots - because they often are both racists and bigots.

Like people attempting to call me out for saying I heard racism around me - I've reported it now, it was racism, but attacking people who say something is racism is one way of silencing people, effectively bullying them towards allowing that behaviour to become normalised and it isn't okay - people should never be scared to call out bull**** when they see it, from both sides, but bullying - like from one **** on this forum, a major example tbh - is never okay, and should be frowned upon by both sides of the spectrum.

edit: TL DR the Stalin yap -

Stalin and Lenin inherited a state full of deeply oppressive machinery and they didn't dismantle it, they used it to further their own goals.

And Lenin actually attempted to justify the oppressions as temporary, and stated after the revolution had actually happened that they would be dismantled however they never were by his death, they both just reproduced and strengthened the tools the tsars used.

edit 2: And it is true, you can say the same - however right wing hate is becoming more accepted by populists and it can very quickly turn itself to oppression and should be refused at all costs - what we're seeing in ours, US and a lot of European politics is essentially what happened to lead to the nazis to power in the first place.

The only way you can stop facism is to call it out, and refuse to become apart of that system and preach it as unacceptable - which it is.

Try reading a proper History book.

Also the far right is everywhere only if you call everything you disagree with Far Right. Free speech is now Far Right; wanting equality before the Law, Far Right; wanting an investigation into how the establishment allowed and probably enabled pakistani Rape gangs, you guessed it Far Right.

[HeroPie1862]

Try reading a proper History book

If only you knew a single thing about me, eh?

A lot of what I stated there was directly from Stalins biography

Kotkin - Stalin, Paradoxes of Power 1878-1928

Kotkin - Stalin, Waiting for Hitler 1929-1941

A People's Tragedy - A History of the Russian Revolution

Edit: Feel free to read a book yourself, and your edit showed your ignorance.

[OchPie]

Free speech is now Far Right; wanting equality before the Law, Far Right; wanting an investigation into how the establishment allowed and probably enabled pakistani Rape gangs, you guessed it Far Right.

Claiming these things are only far right positions is itself a very far right position.

As is having concern about the victims of child *** abuse based only on the ethnicity of their abusers.

[HeroPie1862]

Claiming these things are only far right positions is itself a very far right position.

As is having concern about the victims of child *** abuse based only on the ethnicity of their abusers.

It's sad, but nobody gives a toss about the casual amounts of human trafficking that happens, but sure you bring a minority into it and let's use it to score political points.

The Tory party refused to investigate it themselves, and then decided to score points because of Musk tweeting about it, which is why people are in uproar about it currently - in no way do they actually care.

If they cared they'd have been upset 50+ years ago, my mum was abused in a care home, did anyone else defend her?

You can guess.

[magpie_mania]

I think the terms far-right and far-left are just used much too easily.

I saw this which is what I try to be but sometimes fail. The title is quite apt!

It’s not all black and white…

Not all principles, laws, political parties, or media outlets can be neatly classified as left or right wing, as most will use elements of both. Likewise, individual people, even those who describe themselves as being left-wing or right-wing, will often support one or two principles from the other end of the spectrum. This is a good thing - by avoiding strict labels and remaining open-minded, we can avoid having an over-simplified outlook and judge policies on their own merit.

[HeroPie1862]

I think the terms far-right and far-left are just used much too easily.

I saw this which is what I try to be but sometimes fail. The title is quite apt!

It’s not all black and white…

Not all principles, laws, political parties, or media outlets can be neatly classified as left or right wing, as most will use elements of both. Likewise, individual people, even those who describe themselves as being left-wing or right-wing, will often support one or two principles from the other end of the spectrum. This is a good thing - by avoiding strict labels and remaining open-minded, we can avoid having an over-simplified outlook and judge policies on their own merit.

I 100% agree with this, however sadly people want to be spoon fed and doing your own research has been politicised, even in this thread we've been called left wing for being educated.

That in itself is hilarious, it shows that one side of the spectrum truly depends on ignorance to work.