O/T:- Trump Presidency 2.0 [hic sunt dracones]

[Jampie]

showing my age here, but the terms "Far" left and "Far" right are confusing to me these days.

I did study IA and Politics as elements of my first degree at U of Nottm like decades ago (and very little since!), but then the Far Left was anti-democratic and didn't believe in the vote, wanted equal rights for all, and national ownership of most/all business - as well as international co-existence on similar themes.

The Far Right was also anti-democratic, supported the Nazis, racial segregation, hegemony, and individual ownership of the means of production, as well as unfettered National sovereignty (and National expansionism!) and the right to unlimited individual wealth.

I'm probably seriously beyond my shelf life politically, but I've only read examples of Far Right on here, and nothing that deviates from what I'd call centre left. Tell me I'm wrong!

You aren't wrong at all, you are completely correct.

Both the left and right of politics have actually shifted to the right during past decade or two. Those in the murdoch press bubble now routinely flag moderate left or even moderate right politicians, political views and civilians as "far left". It's complete nonsense, no matter how many times they repeat it.

Wanting companies to pay tax is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting healthcare for the public is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting companies to obey laws is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting democratic norms is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting to counter a dictator who invades his democratic neighbours is a moderate view, not far left.

And on it goes.

[Med Pie]

You aren't wrong at all, you are completely correct.

Both the left and right of politics have actually shifted to the right during past decade or two. Those in the murdoch press bubble now routinely flag moderate left or even moderate right politicians, political views and civilians as "far left". It's complete nonsense, no matter how many times they repeat it.

Wanting companies to pay tax is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting healthcare for the public is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting companies to obey laws is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting democratic norms is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting to counter a dictator who invades his democratic neighbours is a moderate view, not far left.

And on it goes.

You're pretty careful as to your choice of examples there.

What is unfettered immigration.......

What is providing 'on tap' medical care in migrant hotels when the rest of us wait weeks or months to see a GP..............

What is the alienation of the British public, of all colours and creeds.......

What is the perceived protection of certain groups, over and above other UK nationals because you're afraid of being called racist.......

What is the race to 'net zero' at enormous cost to the public, just about the only country to enact such drastic ambitions.............................

I also question your 'wanting democratic norms' because aspects of this government so far, are anything but democratic and have verged on dictatorial..........



I agree, wanting companies to pay taxes is what I'd call equitable rather than moderate, tax is the bugbear of any government, striking the balance is key. Get it right and you create jobs, get it wrong and rich people take their companies and those jobs, elsewhere and then you have to fund government from other pots, like pensions for example and pensioners bus passes are said to be in the cross hairs next.

There is also an issue between the generations in the UK with the young, seemingly envious of those who came before and the term 'boomer' is now a derogatory one. Look no further than the EU for many of the woes faced by our young which jobs going abroad and the country being flooded with cheap labour. The UK is no longer a power house of production, two generations, perhaps three, have overseen it's decline to becoming a low skill, low wage economy.

[Jampie]

Unfettered immigration is the policy of no political party I'm aware of and no person I've ever had a serious discussion about immigration with. What it is is a straw man. The reality of immigration is that western nations all have a fertility rate below replacement (not enough babies) so governments are forced to have high immigration or the economy will collapse. Every country I've looked at has quotas or a similar means of limiting intake to a reasonable level required to maintain a workforce. And these policies are bipartisan. Right wing governments might make a show of reducing immigration from time to time but they never cut it to zero, do they. And it sneaks back up when you're not looking.

Prioritising immigrants over the public for public health spending is not a left wing policy I've ever heard of. Doesn't even make sense. But cutting health spending? Absolutely a right wing policy. If you're waiting months to see a GP (really?), I would ask which governments increased public health spending and which cut it.

Alienation of the British public is not a policy of any political party I've ever heard of. Maybe you need to be more specific?

Net zero is the stated aim of most civilised nations and probably required to stave off civilisation collapsing.

I don't live in the UK, but as I understand it your government was elected and hasn't proposed suspending elections. What're they doing that's "dictatorial"?

Sounds like we're on the same page regarding taxation

Not sure what's going on with the generations there. Yeah, young people being disrespectful to old people is a thing. Old people being disrespectful to young people is a thing. Look at this board... old people disrespecting each other left and right.

I think when you move manufacturing overseas generally the jobs remaining are higher skilled and higher paid, in general, I would have thought. Especially if you manage to grow other industries.

[Lullapie]

showing my age here, but the terms "Far" left and "Far" right are confusing to me these days.

I did study IA and Politics as elements of my first degree at U of Nottm like decades ago (and very little since!), but then the Far Left was anti-democratic and didn't believe in the vote, wanted equal rights for all, and national ownership of most/all business - as well as international co-existence on similar themes.

The Far Right was also anti-democratic, supported the Nazis, racial segregation, hegemony, and individual ownership of the means of production, as well as unfettered National sovereignty (and National expansionism!) and the right to unlimited individual wealth.

I'm probably seriously beyond my shelf life politically, but I've only read examples of Far Right on here, and nothing that deviates from what I'd call centre left. Tell me I'm wrong!

I don't think anybody on here is anti-democratic.

Could you give examples to back your claim please?

I've been called far-right by some, but those that are name calling are that far 'west' on the political spectrum that far-right to them is probably somewhere between Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.

[Lullapie]

Originally Posted by Jampie View Post
You aren't wrong at all, you are completely correct.

Both the left and right of politics have actually shifted to the right during past decade or two. Those in the murdoch press bubble now routinely flag moderate left or even moderate right politicians, political views and civilians as "far left". It's complete nonsense, no matter how many times they repeat it.

Wanting companies to pay tax is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting healthcare for the public is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting companies to obey laws is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting democratic norms is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting to counter a dictator who invades his democratic neighbours is a moderate view, not far left.



The problem with your comments is that I believe you tell a few porkies. We had a robust discussion on here a few months ago and you started out by saying that you were a businessman. I've met many 'businessmen' in my life and deal with many day to day. I also owned a business in the UK for 20 years before emigrating. I've never heard any businessman be so 'socialistic' in their views as yourself.

They are more based on ideology than entrepreneurialism.


All of the above you have stated is what all 'moderate' people would want. I believe that everybody on here is moderate in general but YOU'RE language, in my opinion, is very left-wing.

What about wanting a social welfare or health system that isn't being abused and therefore available to all when needed?
What about ensuring that EVERYBODY pays their correct share of tax?
What about ALL individuals obeying laws?
What about ensuring that ALL countries, irrespective of who their leaders are, stick to their legal and predefined borders?

With regards to your business interests, were you the tour manager for Chumbawumba?

[Lullapie]

You're pretty careful as to your choice of examples there.

What is unfettered immigration.......

What is providing 'on tap' medical care in migrant hotels when the rest of us wait weeks or months to see a GP..............

What is the alienation of the British public, of all colours and creeds.......

What is the perceived protection of certain groups, over and above other UK nationals because you're afraid of being called racist.......

What is the race to 'net zero' at enormous cost to the public, just about the only country to enact such drastic ambitions.............................

I also question your 'wanting democratic norms' because aspects of this government so far, are anything but democratic and have verged on dictatorial..........



I agree, wanting companies to pay taxes is what I'd call equitable rather than moderate, tax is the bugbear of any government, striking the balance is key. Get it right and you create jobs, get it wrong and rich people take their companies and those jobs, elsewhere and then you have to fund government from other pots, like pensions for example and pensioners bus passes are said to be in the cross hairs next.

There is also an issue between the generations in the UK with the young, seemingly envious of those who came before and the term 'boomer' is now a derogatory one. Look no further than the EU for many of the woes faced by our young which jobs going abroad and the country being flooded with cheap labour. The UK is no longer a power house of production, two generations, perhaps three, have overseen it's decline to becoming a low skill, low wage economy.

This - fully agree - great post. I don't see anything other than moderate about your post Med Pie. They are the questions I'd be asking as a taxpayer.

[Jampie]

Originally Posted by Jampie View Post
You aren't wrong at all, you are completely correct.

Both the left and right of politics have actually shifted to the right during past decade or two. Those in the murdoch press bubble now routinely flag moderate left or even moderate right politicians, political views and civilians as "far left". It's complete nonsense, no matter how many times they repeat it.

Wanting companies to pay tax is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting healthcare for the public is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting companies to obey laws is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting democratic norms is a moderate view, not far left.

Wanting to counter a dictator who invades his democratic neighbours is a moderate view, not far left.



The problem with your comments is that I believe you tell a few porkies. We had a robust discussion on here a few months ago and you started out by saying that you were a businessman. I've met many 'businessmen' in my life and deal with many day to day. I also owned a business in the UK for 20 years before emigrating. I've never heard any businessman be so 'socialistic' in their views as yourself.

They are more based on ideology than entrepreneurialism.

I've known plenty of people right across the political spectrum who are in business. Yeah the top end of town tends to be dominated by right wing people (self interest can be self-reinforcing up there), but holding left wing views doesn't lock you out of any career or business in and of themselves.

Your worldview always strikes me as incredibly narrow. You seem to live in a bubble where you only communicate with like-minded people.

All of the above you have stated is what all 'moderate' people would want. I believe that everybody on here is moderate in general but YOU'RE language, in my opinion, is very left-wing.

What about wanting a social welfare or health system that isn't being abused and therefore available to all when needed?
What about ensuring that EVERYBODY pays their correct share of tax?
What about ALL individuals obeying laws?
What about ensuring that ALL countries, irrespective of who their leaders are, stick to their legal and predefined borders?

With regards to your business interests, were you the tour manager for Chumbawumba?

Those are all moderate views as well IMO. Wanting business to pay tax does not somehow preclude wanting individuals to pay it. But when you have massive multinationals paying next to nothing and individuals lumping in almost half in some cases, obviously the system needs work.

I don't work in the music industry, no.

[OchPie]

What about wanting a social welfare or health system that isn't being abused and therefore available to all when needed?

The actual definitions of "abused", "available to all" and "when needed" vary enormously across the political spectrum in the UK.

I think most people believe in the overall principle of some kind of social safety net, but whether that should give someone a life or merely keep them alive is a matter of considerable debate, even now.

[Elite_Pie]

Your worldview always strikes me as incredibly narrow. You seem to live in a bubble where you only communicate with like-minded people.

Lullapie has repeatedly told us that he's very well travelled, has a very wide circle of friends, and has met thousands of people from many countries and all walks of life. It seems there's very little he hasn't done.

It's probably just coincidence that every one of those people always agree with his views!

[drillerpie]

Trunpnis walking back his tariffs pledge. This dropped an hour ago:

https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/...s-yet-b9c8378d

And as if by magic, look what has happened to the dollar.

As i was saying before, tariffs are inflationary, and not having them means the Fed are less likely to raise rates. Dollar wasn't strong in homage to a great leader.