O/T And we wonder why we trust Starmer

[ragingpup]

Other than being surrounded by NATO?

Check out the Minsk Agreement and the way Putin was subsequently shat on.

Surrounded by nato? They are pretty much surrounded by their former ussr countries electing to join nato anyway, so if those countries, as independent nations, be allowed to do so, why can't Ukraine be allowed to do so? Since when has any independent nation been prevented from pursuing its own interest simply because its neighbour doesn't like it? No-one has really answered this. You want to have a go?

From my memory, the Minsk agreements were very poor documents that could be read in any way the reader chooses, and indeed it proved to be quite useless in resolving the conflict which incidentally was preceded by Russia's initial invasion in 2014. You want to have a go at telling me why Russia did this, as it came before the Minsk agreements?

[howdydoo]

Since when has any independent nation been prevented from pursuing its own interest simply because its neighbour doesn't like it? No-one has really answered this. You want to have a go?

Many times. It's called war.

Let the negotiations take a year but FFS stop the killing now.

The US public don't have the appetite for this war and Trump can do what he likes. Pointless criticising him like Zelensky and European leaders are doing. They are playing into Putins hands.

Putin doesn't care about sacrificing his soldiers and Trump has no intention of overseeing any US soldier losing 1 drop of blood.

Who's going to fight Putin with Ukraine? Are we happy our young people could be potentially sacrificed and killed?

[ragingpup]

Many times. It's called war.

Let the negotiations take a year but FFS stop the killing now.

The US public don't have the appetite for this war and Trump can do what he likes. Pointless criticising him like Zelensky and European leaders are doing. They are playing into Putins hands.

Putin doesn't care about sacrificing his soldiers and Trump has no intention of overseeing any US soldier losing 1 drop of blood.

Who's going to fight Putin with Ukraine? Are we happy our young people could be potentially sacrificed and killed?

I don't think anyone is happy about it and hopefully joined up European opposition allies can join with trump in pursuading Putin to withdraw from Ukraine, so it won't come to it. Seems to me if one nation invades another, we either join together using collective armed forces to meet the force with opposition, or we just look away and allow a nation to be taken by force in part at first but history tells us that such manouvres don't end there. We'll have to disagree, I think Europe should collectively stand up to Putin, and to be honest Russia's military capabilities are not strong, struggling even to hold onto what it has against the Ukranian forces. I understand the argument against it but I think the 1939 comparison holds as does the reason NATO was formed - if a democratic nation is invaded, collective force should be used to overcome it to avoid it escalating further.

[Eternal Optimist]

Surrounded by nato? They are pretty much surrounded by their former ussr countries electing to join nato anyway, so if those countries, as independent nations, be allowed to do so, why can't Ukraine be allowed to do so? Since when has any independent nation been prevented from pursuing its own interest simply because its neighbour doesn't like it? No-one has really answered this. You want to have a go?

From my memory, the Minsk agreements were very poor documents that could be read in any way the reader chooses, and indeed it proved to be quite useless in resolving the conflict which incidentally was preceded by Russia's initial invasion in 2014. You want to have a go at telling me why Russia did this, as it came before the Minsk agreements?

A great synopsis of the message from the mainstream media.

Sadly, Putin doesn't see it that way. And I don't blame him.

[ragingpup]

A great synopsis of the message from the mainstream media.

Sadly, Putin doesn't see it that way. And I don't blame him.

You don't seem to explain much about the way you see it, with links to your own sources. Why is that?

[Eternal Optimist]

You don't seem to explain much about the way you see it, with links to your own sources. Why is that?

In this situation, it makes sod all difference how I - and the rest of us, including top WEF puppet Zelensky - see it.*

What matters is how Putin and Trump see it.

*Include the EU in that, which is why they're currently doing excellent pantomime performance politics in pretending they have the slightest bit of control here. They don't. Especially that prize bell-end Farmer Harmer Starmer.