O/T:- Trump Presidency 2.0 [hic sunt dracones]

[BigFatPie]

Saw this take of the meeting on twitter and I agree with most of it:

I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.

When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was possible that Trump and Vance ambushed Zelensky or were even trying to humiliate him. That's not what happened.

You had 40 minutes of calm conversation. Vance made a point that didn't attack Zelensky and wasn't even addressed to him, and Zelensky clearly started the argument.

In the first 40 minutes, Zelensky kept trying to go beyond what was negotiated in the deal. When Trump was asked a question, it was always "we'll see." Zelensky made blanket assertions that there would be no negotiating with Putin, and that Russia would pay for the war. When Trump said that it was a tragedy that people on both sides were dying, Zelensky interjected that the Russians were the invaders.

For his part, Trump made clear that the US would continue delivering military aid. All Zelensky had to do was remain calm for a few more minutes and they would've signed a deal.

The argument started when Trump pointed out that it would be hard to make a deal if you talk about Putin the way Zelensky does. Vance interjects to make the reasonable point that Biden called Putin names and that didn't get us anywhere.

The Zelensky/Trump dynamic was calm and stable. It was when Vance spoke that Zelensky started to interrogate him. Throughout the press conference to that point, everyone was making their arguments directly to the audience. Zelensky decided to challenge Vance and ask him hostile questions. He went back to his point that Putin never sticks to ceasefires, once again implying that negotiations are pointless. Why on earth would you do this? Then came the fight we all saw.

Zelensky was minutes away from being home free, and he would have had the deal and new commitments from the Trump administration. The point Vance made was directed against Biden and the media, taking them to task for speaking in moralistic terms. This offended Zelensky, and that began the argument.

I've been a fan of Zelensky up to this point, but this showed so much incompetence, if not emotional instability, that I don't see how he recovers from this. The relationship with the administration is broken. Ukraine should probably go with new leadership at this point.

The worlds most predictable post, Andy blames Zelenskyy for that shambles. Pathetic.

[Bohinen]

The worlds most predictable post, Andy blames Zelenskyy for that shambles. Pathetic.

What is it about Zelensky/Zelenskyy/Zelenskyyyy that you find impressive? He's a warmonger and also a bit of a grifter, in truth. On a personal level, he's also the spitting image of my bestie when I was 10/11, who was Ukrainian. Objectively, he was also pretty horrible, right-wing, and stole sweets from the off-licence in Lady Bay.

[BigFatPie]

What is it about Zelensky/Zelenskyy/Zelenskyyyy that you find impressive? He's a warmonger and also a bit of a grifter, in truth. On a personal level, he's also the spitting image of my bestie when I was 10/11, who was Ukrainian. Objectively, he was also pretty horrible, right-wing, and stole sweets from the off-licence in Lady Bay.

Youll have to elaborate on why you think hes a warmonger.

[ThaiPie]

The worlds most predictable post, Andy blames Zelenskyy for that shambles. Pathetic.

I think JD Vance was to blame.

He started talking about diplomacy is the answer, as if it's a new idea he'd thought of.

Zelensky quite rightly pointed out that in 2019 he signed an agreement with Putin, backed by Merkal and Macron. Putin broke this agreement.

JD Vance, realising he was starting to look the idiot he is, attacked Zelensky to cover up his ignorance.

Trying to make Zelensky beg and say "Oh thankyou, I haven't said thankyou, for at least 30 minutes."

JD Vance is feeding Trump a lot of the Ukraine are the bad guys nonsense.

And Rubio is just as bad. He described Putin as a war criminal and then sold out his principles when offered a job by Trump.

[queenslandpie]

I think JD Vance was to blame.

He started talking about diplomacy is the answer, as if it's a new idea he'd thought of.

Zelensky quite rightly pointed out that in 2019 he signed an agreement with Putin, backed by Merkal and Macron. Putin broke this agreement.

JD Vance, realising he was starting to look the idiot he is, attacked Zelensky to cover up his ignorance.

Trying to make Zelensky beg and say "Oh thankyou, I haven't said thankyou, for at least 30 minutes."

JD Vance is feeding Trump a lot of the Ukraine are the bad guys nonsense.

And Rubio is just as bad. He described Putin as a war criminal and then sold out his principles when offered a job by Trump.

Russian kompromat is probably more of a motivation for him tbh!

[ThaiPie]

Yes, I think Trump would have been the easiest of targets. But what? He doesn't seem to worried about sordid allegations?