Election Year or Fear!

[ramAnag]

About 2/3rds did not vote Reform I agree.

Which is all I’ve claimed…that the politics of Farage, fortunately imo, isn’t able to attract anything more than a vociferous and noisy sizeable minority and will find themselves isolated in any future coalition just as - as MA suggests - has been the case elsewhere in Europe.

[ramAnag]

I?m not going to get into another spat but I disagree, and with an observers hat on not an anti-right (your phrase) one.

Not entirely sure what you’re disagreeing with, or why ‘anti-right’ is my phrase.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Which is all I’ve claimed…that the politics of Farage, fortunately imo, isn’t able to attract anything more than a vociferous and noisy sizeable minority and will find themselves isolated in any future coalition just as - as MA suggests - has been the case elsewhere in Europe.

i wouldnt disagree with the assessment that reform et al are likely to remain a noisy minority on the national political stage, absent any major change such as merger back into Tories, but I believe that a lot of what they say represents the opinion of a far wider plebiscite - eg may only get 25% of national vote but in a poll then way way more people would support in particular their immigration policies - probably 50% +. So God help you (us) if an STV voting procedure or similar is ever brought in!

[Geoff Parkstone]

Which is all I’ve claimed…that the politics of Farage, fortunately imo, isn’t able to attract anything more than a vociferous and noisy sizeable minority and will find themselves isolated in any future coalition just as - as MA suggests - has been the case elsewhere in Europe.

No what you claimed is a very different thing:

"P.S. At the most recent by-election in Scotland, Farage’s ReformUK and the ‘sink the boats’ crew won 26.1% of the vote. That means that 73.9% rejected their stance."

not voting for reform does not mean you have rejected their stance on any given issue. it just means that you feel more strongly about other things. See my very first post on this matter re the cats. In a referendum you'd have been right, but this was a electoral vote where all concerns about all issues will be reflected in that voting: particularly as Scottish nationalism is pervasive in the particular consituency (in England we may have seen different patterns)

[Andy_Faber]

Not entirely sure what you?re disagreeing with, or why ?anti-right? is my phrase.

I disagree pretty much in line with GP's line of reasoning but don't currently have time or inclination to provide lengthy responses

Your 'phrase' is the repeated use of 'right' ie 'right wing', which is IMO an outmoded description as the world, and the pleb's individual POVs and voting habits, are far more complex than can be categorised as 'right' (or the divising 'far right') and 'left'

[ramAnag]

No what you claimed is a very different thing:

"P.S. At the most recent by-election in Scotland, Farage?’s ReformUK and the ?‘sink the boats?’ crew won 26.1% of the vote. That means that 73.9% rejected their stance."

not voting for reform does not mean you have rejected their stance on any given issue. it just means that you feel more strongly about other things. See my very first post on this matter re the cats. In a referendum you'd have been right, but this was a electoral vote where all concerns about all issues will be reflected in that voting: particularly as Scottish nationalism is pervasive in the particular consituency (in England we may have seen different patterns)

I take your point, but in your ‘electoral vote where all concerns about all issues will be reflected’, Reform’s appeal, at a time when they are very high profile and the new government is quite unpopular, only extended to marginally more than a quarter of voters.
Whichever slant you might wish to place on things, that suggests to me that Farage’s policies, largely about immigration, are insufficiently appealing to attract the support of around 75% of the electorate.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I take your point, but in your ‘electoral vote where all concerns about all issues will be reflected’, Reform’s appeal, at a time when they are very high profile and the new government is quite unpopular, only extended to marginally more than a quarter of voters.
Whichever slant you might wish to place on things, that suggests to me that Farage’s policies, largely about immigration, are insufficiently appealing to attract the support of around 75% of the electorate.

I can't stop you putting your head in the sand and pretending there isnt a growing popular support for reform policies, but I think you would be wise not to. By this I do not mean you should adopt them, but rather take the threat a little more seriously rather than see it as a ranting of a minority that will blow away. But your choice: become the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal at your peril.

[ramAnag]

I can't stop you putting your head in the sand and pretending there isnt a growing popular support for reform policies, but I think you would be wise not to. By this I do not mean you should adopt them, but rather take the threat a little more seriously rather than see it as a ranting of a minority that will blow away. But your choice: become the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal at your peril.

Lol! No head in the sand from me, GP. I take the threat very seriously, hence my long standing outspoken opposition to Farage, Robinson etc and all of their ilk. An opposition I might add that you have repeatedly attempted to ridicule and criticise.

Of course I recognise that there is growing support for Reform policies. There’s bound to be really isn’t there? The didn’t exist before the last election, the Labour government are hardly popular, the Tories totally discredited and someone has to provide a haven for all the disgruntled Tory voters, former UKIP voters and wannabe racists.

My only point is that, fortunately, I cannot envisage such views being attractive to more than between a quarter and a third of the electorate. I accept that represents a significant minority and I accept they pose a threat to common sense and decency but, as doesn’t seem unlikely, in the event of this government being replaced in four years time by some sort of coalition then I think a combination of the other mainstream parties, who do not support Farage’s extremist witterings, will prove capable of keeping him a safe distance from real power.

[Andy_Faber]

Lol! No head in the sand from me, GP. I take the threat very seriously, hence my long standing outspoken opposition to Farage, Robinson etc and all of their ilk. An opposition I might add that you have repeatedly attempted to ridicule and criticise.

Of course I recognise that there is growing support for Reform policies. There’s bound to be really isn’t there? The didn’t exist before the last election, the Labour government are hardly popular, the Tories totally discredited and someone has to provide a haven for all the disgruntled Tory voters, former UKIP voters and wannabe racists.

My only point is that, fortunately, I cannot envisage such views being attractive to more than between a quarter and a third of the electorate. I accept that represents a significant minority and I accept they pose a threat to common sense and decency but, as doesn’t seem unlikely, in the event of this government being replaced in four years time by some sort of coalition then I think a combination of the other mainstream parties, who do not support Farage’s extremist witterings, will prove capable of keeping him a safe distance from real power.

One thing I?d be interested in knowing, and it?s a genuine enquiry not any sort of trap: are you surprised, as evidenced by the growth of what you call ?the right?, that there are so many (I?m careful with my words here) ?racially intolerant? folk showing themselves through voting or direct action? Until my change of ?career? in 2009 and my exposure to a different (careful also here) ?class? of folk I was utterly unaware, and the standpoints, arguments put forward and anecdotes (oops!) offered shocked me

[ramAnag]

One thing I?d be interested in knowing, and it?s a genuine enquiry not any sort of trap: are you surprised, as evidenced by the growth of what you call ?the right?, that there are so many (I?m careful with my words here) ?racially intolerant? folk showing themselves through voting or direct action? Until my change of ?career? in 2009 and my exposure to a different (careful also here) ?class? of folk I was utterly unaware, and the standpoints, arguments put forward and anecdotes (oops!) offered shocked me

No, not particularly. We’ve been here before. Enoch Powell, skinheads in the seventies setting out to go ‘Paki bashing’ and the NF marches of the seventies and eighties.
I was at Red Lion Square, gave evidence at Bow Street in the mid seventies and was an active member of the Anti Apartheid movement, also in the seventies.
A huge amount of progress has been made. Just a bit sad that racial and religious tolerance is being held back by the usual suspects and the behaviour of a few.