I voted yes....but felt like I'd been kicked in the ba's the day

[noahrab]

Absolutely Mook and I'm not underestimating that. but the economic argument cuts both ways. My argument is plain and simple. 1 I think we have the resources the people and the will to make a complete success of our own country. and we would be a fairer more equal and affluent Country.

2 The right wing neoliberal policies of Westminster don't work for Scotland. They don't really work for the rest of rUK as well save a small elite. Scotland is a wealthy nation but being part of the Westminster system has stopped us from becoming a wealthy society. The fact that Scotland’s wealth does not stay in Scotland has led to a lack of investment in business and infrastructure, created worries about pensions, more poverty, lower life expectancy. And before that Dundee half wit jumps in this is not blaming Westminster this is the reality.

3 Is it actually possible to make a bigger mess of things than the UK has ? Billions upon Billions of Scotland's resources being squandered on tax cuts for the rich and illegal wars. and servicing a debt that has been run up by a greedy selfish few.

4 Its normal for sovereign Nations to be Independent.

Can you post a link to this 'illegal war'.

Not opinion, but fact based.

Cheers.

[JackSnakes]

Can you post a link to this 'illegal war'.

Not opinion, but fact based.

Cheers.

The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.
Mr Annan said that the invasion was not sanctioned by the UN security council or in accordance with the UN's founding charter. In an interview with the BBC World Service broadcast last night, he was asked outright if the war was illegal. He replied: "Yes, if you wish."

He then added unequivocally: "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and from the charter point of view it was illegal."




https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq

[Mook1]

To who?
It shouldn't be.
It wasn't for Brexit because, despite knowing full well that they were shooting themselves in the pocket, they voted for it anyway because they wanted their country back.
Like indyref, Brexit was not really about the economy or immigration - these are just issues used to muddy the waters. Scare stories to make people think twice about their original position.
To be honest, if you don't want it badly enough to go for it despite the sure knowledge that you will be hit hard in the short term, then you really shouldn't even bother thinking about it.
Independence is a bold step for a country that has not had it for 300 years.
It is obviously too bold a step for many.

To people who live & work in Scotland.

[noahrab]

The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal.
Mr Annan said that the invasion was not sanctioned by the UN security council or in accordance with the UN's founding charter. In an interview with the BBC World Service broadcast last night, he was asked outright if the war was illegal. He replied: "Yes, if you wish."

He then added unequivocally: "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and from the charter point of view it was illegal."




https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq

Thats an opinion.

If it was declared illegal who has been brought to justice over it? Not debating the morality of it just who has been charged over it.

[JackSnakes]

If anyone decided to go and work for themselves instead of working for a company they would look at the financial implications.

Being yer own man is no good if yer skint.

I accept that - do you not think that people should be prepared to take a short term down-turn to prosper in the long run?

Is it an issue that the 'YES' campaign were not prepared to admit that there would be economic fallout from a 'YES' vote?

Would it have changed your mind, or made it easier to accept, if they had been honest and said that the economy would fall off a cliff the morning after a 'YES' vote, but that good governance and financial management would restore confidence and that it would pick up?

UK and EU are really only loosely joined, and that separation is likely to take five years.
England and Scotland are so thoroughly intermixed that a final separation would take at least that plus several more I would imagine.
Given that there can really be no cast-iron guarantees, since world economics is not driven by reality but by opinions, what would need to happen to convince you that independence is a good idea?

There is absolutely no question that, whichever way you spin it, it is a bad idea financially in the immediate short term. Anyone who says otherwise is a bare-faced liar. Scotland may well be resource-rich - I happen to believe it is - but that doesn't mean that the morning after independence a huge waterfall of gold coins will start tumbling down into Holyrood. It would be a long difficult road. Whether it will be worth it in the end is anyone's guess. For some, like me, the prize would only ever be self-governance. The rest is add-ons.
Currency is a sticky one - I would imagine that, since stability is what is required, it would be wise to have a unique currency in the end but, immediately following a 'YES' vote, a significant period of using Sterling would be good whilst preparing the new currency and easing market fears. When confidence has returned, the new currency could be rolled out.
As has been demonstrated by the Brexit thing, Independence will be a shock. A very painful shock, but I believe it would get better.

[JackSnakes]

Thats an opinion.

If it was declared illegal who has been brought to justice over it? Not debating the morality of it just who has been charged over it.

It is the opinion of the head of the organisation that decides whether such things are legal or not.
American influence in such things will be enough to ensure that no-one will be brought to justice over it, just like current Israeli war-crimes that also do not conform to UN rules

[JackSnakes]

To people who live & work in Scotland.

Your wee one liners aren't contributing anything here by the way.
Say something sensible or fk off.

[noahrab]

I accept that - do you not think that people should be prepared to take a short term down-turn to prosper in the long run?

Is it an issue that the 'YES' campaign were not prepared to admit that there would be economic fallout from a 'YES' vote?

Would it have changed your mind, or made it easier to accept, if they had been honest and said that the economy would fall off a cliff the morning after a 'YES' vote, but that good governance and financial management would restore confidence and that it would pick up?

UK and EU are really only loosely joined, and that separation is likely to take five years.
England and Scotland are so thoroughly intermixed that a final separation would take at least that plus several more I would imagine.
Given that there can really be no cast-iron guarantees, since world economics is not driven by reality but by opinions, what would need to happen to convince you that independence is a good idea?

There is absolutely no question that, whichever way you spin it, it is a bad idea financially in the immediate short term. Anyone who says otherwise is a bare-faced liar. Scotland may well be resource-rich - I happen to believe it is - but that doesn't mean that the morning after independence a huge waterfall of gold coins will start tumbling down into Holyrood. It would be a long difficult road. Whether it will be worth it in the end is anyone's guess. For some, like me, the prize would only ever be self-governance. The rest is add-ons.
Currency is a sticky one - I would imagine that, since stability is what is required, it would be wise to have a unique currency in the end but, immediately following a 'YES' vote, a significant period of using Sterling would be good whilst preparing the new currency and easing market fears. When confidence has returned, the new currency could be rolled out.
As has been demonstrated by the Brexit thing, Independence will be a shock. A very painful shock, but I believe it would get better.

I don't expect it to be a bed of roses nor a smooth transition without pain but those desperate for independence shy away when asked what the risks and pain would be.

They would have us believe it will be the land of milk and honey.

All I want is honesty from them and an indication of income/expenditure and borrowing.

Shouting 'freedom' is a hollow victory if that's all we're left with.

[noahrab]

It is the opinion of the head of the organisation that decides whether such things are legal or not.
American influence in such things will be enough to ensure that no-one will be brought to justice over it, just like current Israeli war-crimes that also do not conform to UN rules

Still only an opinion though.

[Mook1]

Your wee one liners aren't contributing anything here by the way.
Say something sensible or fk off.

You're saying that economics aren't important, I'm not sure what to say to that other than to point out that they're hugely important to the people who live & work in Scotland.

Economics are the reason I didn't vote Yes in 2014, I don't want my Son to grow up in a country beset with unemployment & poverty. If the SNP got their currency & economics stuff sorted out, they might well pysh a second referendum.