Greg Clarke resigns as FA chairman

[crazyfists]

To imply anybody here wants to be able to use some of the words you've actually gone ahead and typed is hopefully a miss-timed tackle. Nobody is arguing for the freedom to use those words. "Coloured" however is now a grey area again. What do we do about "The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People"? Should they change their name? If not, is it OK for white people to say the name? Does context matter or not?

Cultural appropriation is becoming an increasingly big issue, the pop star Adelle was feeling the heat recently for having braided hair and it's now hobbling the acting profession- actors are expected to have the same ***uality as the part they are playing, authors are coming under pressure to not to write about ethnic characters in fiction. It's a minefield.

God you're hard work. I was wondering when you'd bring up Adele dressing up for the carnival, I can see you examples coming from a mile off. For the very, very, very last time, for me personally I judge every case individually. I think the Adele case is stupid, she should be able to dress for the carnival with deadlocks and a Jamaican top. I don't agree with every case which I've said numerous times. There are extremists on every side of every argument, most people find some middle ground, for example I know black people who don't think that about Adele, like I say extremist views always are more loudly heard. If you don't think some people on here want to still use the N or p word then the only miss timed tackle is yours.

I need to log on to work so I'll just say this. A white person cannot describe a black person as coloured in this country anymore. If organisations WANT to call themselves the 'The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People' then they can and you can say the term coloured in that sense. Also I notice that this must be an American organisation as its colored which over there has a whole different set of language nuances, I'm specifically talking about this country.

How come I'm friends with Asians, blacks and whites and I work with all those races and alot of Eastern Europeans as well and I can manage to get through home and work life without racially upsetting anyone. How come I can do all that all day everyday and yet some people can't even grasp how not to be racist.

Don't post back with another Adele or Jamie cultural appropriation please, I can't stand writing for the 5th time on this thread I don't agree with every case and take them on their own merits. You're breaking me. Have a good day.

[BigFatPie]

Disingenuous? Why?



How does that tally with what you wrote thr other day, namely that "its about not making a person’s shade of skin their primary characteristic"?

The theories that inspire BLM and some other modern anti racism movements are about doing the exact opposite; they make a persons race their primary characteristic and then they insist that characteristic govern interactions with other people.



I think that moderate campaigns do as much as they can reasonably be expected to do, and have done a good job considering where we were 30 or so years ago. I think wearing t shirts is fairly pointless. I think the anti racism adverts before European games are well made and useful.

If you're asking me how to get to a situation where nobody sends footballers racist Tweets and nobody ever says anything racist at a football match, I would say that unfortunately it will probably never happen.

Saying or doing racist things is already socially undesirable (at least for the time being, until the definition of racism becomes too warped by over-use to have any meaning) and illegal, which I suppose is testament to the work done by the moderate campaigns. I don't see what other useful avenues are open to them, apart from waiting for the old adage that 'change happens one funeral at a time' to take effect.

C’mon Driller are you really trying to pretend that you don’t know what the motivations are of the people in that video? Admittedly what’s happening in that is tame, but there’s plenty of others knocking around from the weekend where there’s some sickening violence. And most importantly, they have the backing of the president, though obviously not for much longer. I’m hoping Biden’s election takes some of the heat out of this whole debate. With hopefully more light.

The comment I made about skin colour was in answer to a question someone asked about why ‘coloured person’ is deemed un acceptable while ‘person of colour’ is ok. No idea whether my speculation is correct, as I said at the time. It’s good to hear that you still think more moderate racism campaigns have merit , you’ll never get a perfect world, but you’re right there’s a been a lot of progress in the last 30 years.

[Mark_Ross]

Well I for one wish I'd never got drawn in. We should all just stick to football.

Doubt that any of us on here are ever going to change our opinions anyway.

[DaveSmithRules]

Well I for one wish I'd never got drawn in. We should all just stick to football.

Doubt that any of us on here are ever going to change our opinions anyway.

I've been reading rather than posting on this thread since a while back. But I want to say that I think the debate is/ has been interesting. And it has led to me changing some of my opinions. I went into it thinking that certain people on here just enjoy being mildly racist and saying hurtful things about other people - for devilment or whatever. But I can now see that for a lot of them the evolution of language around this issue is genuinely just very confusing and hard to keep up with for some people. It's not a valid reason for Greg Clarke to keep his job, but it's a good reason to empathise with a few fellow pies who aren't actively trying to hurt and offend people.

I'd also like to say that if you're not open to having your opinions changed (even a little) then you're not open to growing as a human being and that's genuinely sad.

[drillerpie]

C’mon Driller are you really trying to pretend that you don’t know what the motivations are of the people in that video? Admittedly what’s happening in that is tame, but there’s plenty of others knocking around from the weekend where there’s some sickening violence. And most importantly, they have the backing of the president, though obviously not for much longer. I’m hoping Biden’s election takes some of the heat out of this whole debate. With hopefully more light.

I don't pretend to know what goes on in people's heads. I don't deny that there may well have been very unsavoury and maybe even criminal characters among those marchers, but the fact remains that you posted a video of people walking and chanting as some kind of counter argument to people being concerned about citizens, journalists and police being beaten up and buildings being destroyed by Antifa - something which I'm afraid I just don't get. If there was violence and you would like to talk about that instead then I'm happy to do so.

I'm happy to see any of those marchers feel the full force of the law if they engage in illegal behaviour, are you willing to say the same about Antifa?

The comment I made about skin colour was in answer to a question someone asked about why ‘coloured person’ is deemed un acceptable while ‘person of colour’ is ok. No idea whether my speculation is correct, as I said at the time. It’s good to hear that you still think more moderate racism campaigns have merit , you’ll never get a perfect world, but you’re right there’s a been a lot of progress in the last 30 years.

I'm glad we agree that there has been a lot of progress, but I find it a bit worrying that you seem surprised that I think moderate anti racism campaigns have merit. Obviously I don't disagree with the sentiment 'racism is a bad thing, don't do it'.

It also seems like we agree on the fact that a colour blind society should be the goal, although it seems like we disagree on how to get there.

Just to clarify my position, I have an issue with BLM as I think they're using the sentiment around their name as a Trojan horse to push a radical agenda which I think is divisive and will be counter productive. When I put that to you in the summer you replied with a NYTimes survey which said that Biden had increased his large advantage in the polls. In light of the disappointment at the recent elections, have you changed your mind about it being counter productive? Do you still think that there isn't a Ferguson Effect, and that violent crime hasn't increased since the controversy over the killing, or that of it has increased, it is just a coincidence?

I also dislike the pseudoscience that comes along with a lot of the modern anti racism narratives, and is taken on board and recycled by large parts of the media (eg. Ethnic group A makes up x% of the population but only y% of field z = definitive proof of racism, with no other explanations sought or even allowed). Do you have an opinion on that?

[upthemaggies]

I don't pretend to know what goes on in people's heads. I don't deny that there may well have been very unsavoury and maybe even criminal characters among those marchers,

Twitter is awash with people on either side trading videos to 'prove' the other side is more or exclusively violent, some of them edited out of context or not showing the full picture. I'm going to guess it's no different to football hooliganism days in that a good percentage are in it purely for kicks and not the cause they are hiding behind. It'll be mostly disorganized chaos with people who had no intention of joining in getting caught up in it.

Mark_Ross is probably right that we should all stick to football but that's going to be difficult with this movement now becoming so visibly intertwined with the game. Going back to the OT, I'm wondering if the best course of action would be to redefine the role of FA chairman and limit it to effectively become the public face of the FA, give the job to somebody of an ethic minority and wheel them out every so often to bring the good news that they've increased x amount of this or that people in this or that area of the organization or game itself so that the media can whoop and cheer "for he's a jolly good fellow" and what a brilliant job the FA are now doing whilst the rest of the organization tries to deal with the fallout of lockdowns and the myriad of problems that go with running football. If they stick another white male up there he's on a hiding to nothing. If I had to bet on it, I think they'll give it to a white woman.

[BigFatPie]

I don't pretend to know what goes on in people's heads. I don't deny that there may well have been very unsavoury and maybe even criminal characters among those marchers, but the fact remains that you posted a video of people walking and chanting as some kind of counter argument to people being concerned about citizens, journalists and police being beaten up and buildings being destroyed by Antifa - something which I'm afraid I just don't get. If there was violence and you would like to talk about that instead then I'm happy to do so.

I'm happy to see any of those marchers feel the full force of the law if they engage in illegal behaviour, are you willing to say the same about Antifa?



I'm glad we agree that there has been a lot of progress, but I find it a bit worrying that you seem surprised that I think moderate anti racism campaigns have merit. Obviously I don't disagree with the sentiment 'racism is a bad thing, don't do it'.

It also seems like we agree on the fact that a colour blind society should be the goal, although it seems like we disagree on how to get there.

Just to clarify my position, I have an issue with BLM as I think they're using the sentiment around their name as a Trojan horse to push a radical agenda which I think is divisive and will be counter productive. When I put that to you in the summer you replied with a NYTimes survey which said that Biden had increased his large advantage in the polls. In light of the disappointment at the recent elections, have you changed your mind about it being counter productive? Do you still think that there isn't a Ferguson Effect, and that violent crime hasn't increased since the controversy over the killing, or that of it has increased, it is just a coincidence?

I also dislike the pseudoscience that comes along with a lot of the modern anti racism narratives, and is taken on board and recycled by large parts of the media (eg. Ethnic group A makes up x% of the population but only y% of field z = definitive proof of racism, with no other explanations sought or even allowed). Do you have an opinion on that?

You don’t have to be psychic to know what’s going off in the minds of those who march to support Trump. They’ve been telling us for the last 4 years. As we’ve already established, you like to draw equivalence between those people and ‘antifa’. I still don’t really know who you mean by that term, I like to think I would be ‘antifa’ if I lived in the US, and I presume everyone who fought against the Nazis were ‘antifa’ as well. Every political cause attracts idiots, but I think your protests of equivalence with white supremacists are false. What elections have been ‘disappointing’? The chief far right extremist has just been kicked out. I honestly can’t remember the intricacies of our exchanges months ago, but I do remember the evidence of your alleged ‘Ferguson effect’ being flimsy at best. Maybe there’s more evidence now?

I don’t know about your last paragraph. If we take football as an example, why do you think relatively speaking, there are few black managers and administrators?

[drillerpie]

You don’t have to be psychic to know what’s going off in the minds of those who march to support Trump. They’ve been telling us for the last 4 years.

So you know the motivations of all of the thousands of people on that march? Every single one?

As we’ve already established, you like to draw equivalence between those people and ‘antifa’. I still don’t really know who you mean by that term, I like to think I would be ‘antifa’ if I lived in the US, and I presume everyone who fought against the Nazis were ‘antifa’ as well. Every political cause attracts idiots, but I think your protests of equivalence with white supremacists are false.

I like to draw equivalence between right wing extremists and left wing extremists, yes. I think they are both dangerous. Calling yourself Antifa is to use the same trick as calling a movement Black Lives Matter - pretty much everyone agrees that black lives matter and pretty much everyone is anti fascism (in the true sense of the word), so it's a great way to elicit immediate sympathy and cover up the real aims of a group.

Why do you think it's a false comparison? What is the big difference between them?

What elections have been ‘disappointing’? The chief far right extremist has just been kicked out.

Seriously? Are you seriously trying to say that the election wasn't disappointing for the Democrats? Are you saying the plan all along was to win states by small margins and not flip the Senate?

I honestly can’t remember the intricacies of our exchanges months ago, but I do remember the evidence of your alleged ‘Ferguson effect’ being flimsy at best. Maybe there’s more evidence now?

The evidence is still the same. That means the evidence in favour of there being a Ferguson Effect consists of a majority of scientific studies showing a correlation between these events and crime statistics in the following months. This is backed up by abundant anecdotal evidence from policemen, staff shortages in police forces, rises in requests for early retirement of several hundred %, and so on.

The evidence against there being a Ferguson Effect consists almost entirely, I kid you not, of politicians and police chiefs saying there isn't a Ferguson Effect. If you consider the evidence for to be flimsy, how would you describe the evidence against?

I don’t know about your last paragraph. If we take football as an example, why do you think relatively speaking, there are few black managers and administrators?

I'm open to the idea it might be subtle bias (people tend to employ people who resemble them, so white males may unconsciously employ other white males), but I'm also open to the idea that it might be something else, and I resent being asked to unthinkingly accept an unsatisfactory explanation for fear of being called a bigot.

I've answered your question in good faith, now maybe you could answer mine. Can you think of any reasons at all why South Asians are under-represented in football that don't include people being massive racists?

[BigFatPie]

So you know the motivations of all of the thousands of people on that march? Every single one?

Eh?? Are you being serious? I suppose we don’t know the individual motivations of everyone who attended the Nuremberg rallies either, but we could hazard a guess they weren’t there just for the uniforms. Maybe I’m being too harsh, maybe the lads who went out on NF marches in the 70s were pinko liberals who were actually in favour of more immigration. You’re being much more kind to those people than you are to the BLM movement which according to you mostly consists of Trojan horse Marxists.

I’m sure the *plan* for the Dems was to win every state in the electoral college, keep the house, and smash the senate. We don’t really judge electoral success by that sort of measure though do we? Comfortably winning the presidency, keeping the house and still being in with a chance of flipping the senate sounds like a good night to me, though it obviously doesn’t fit in with your ‘wokeness is destroying liberal democracy’ narrative.

I see you’re happy to accept anecdotal evidence as proof of your Ferguson effect. I thought you accepted ‘lived experience’ as evidence of nothing? Ok if it bolsters you’re preconceived viewpoint eh?

Sounds like you might be on to something with your white people giving other white people jobs theory. Does that count as racism, because it seems like the dictionary definition to me. What if that theory was also prevalent in other areas of life? But that can’t be right because then ‘white privilege’ would actually be a thing, and as James Lindsay or some other white bloke told you, that doesn’t exist.

I’ll answer your south Asian football thing with a straight face. I’ll go for the fact that football isn’t sufficiently as big a thing in those communities for enough people to be playing at a high enough level to get professional players come through. There’s over 1bn people in India, and AFAIK they’ve never got near a World Cup. What do you think?

[TheBlackHorse]

... for what it's worth, Driller, my guess is that you are probably aware that the South Asian/Indian focus is often personal financial survival for themselves and their family. Hence they are good at at doing all you need to do to achieve that. If you consider cases in Africa, migrant Indian nationals mostly ran Uganda and South Africa, eventually to their own detriment. Over here, they work hard to do the jobs many locals don't want to do and become type-cast in certain roles. As immigrants, they ensure that their children work hard at school so as to live in a matter better than their parents have done. It's no wonder that they regard sport as frivolous - better to run the game than play it. It's much the same in Muslim families, probably to an even greater extent, where 'Community' pressures are most evident.