Election Year or Fear!

[MadAmster]

BTW - it's not just FootyMad either, there's a handful of similar posters on dcfcfans and a plethora on FB. I'm seriously contemplating leaving all 3.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Unless they are rear gunning!

[MadAmster]

Gents. Can we please stop this, incredibly childish and annoying, constant sniping?

It's gone beyond anything sensible, reasonable or proportional. Desist from constantly playing oneupmanship. I don't give a flying f*ck who started it. ALL of you, quit, NOW!

[Geoff Parkstone]

During my working life, the last 1/4 of which was in teaching, I have designed, built and run computer centres. That includes fire prevention, electrical safety, backup measures etc etc etc.. Pen pusher? Far from it. Train drivers are there, mainly, for when the "system" fails or outside influences, such as some idiot being on the tracks or a broken down vehicle at a crossing requires instant handling to prevent a crash. Of course, if it's a suicide attempt, that's likely to be a last second jump and they can't react quickly enough. You minimise the train drivers task. It's similar to an airline pilot, in essence. A train is perfectly capable of running itself but, as yet, there's no replacement been found for the human intervention when needed.

It's an interesting point that the driver is there for when the automated systems cannot act or fail to act, so they effectively ae watchman / brakeman - whilst letting the train drive itself. Agree that's the reality of the job, although wonder whether that role merits what will approach 90k a year in a couple of years time. A lot of that high salary was developed in an era when the role was more hand on / less automated, yet it has not gone down as technology has crept in. Many jobs (my own included) have downgraded and have become less well remunerated because of tech, yet train drivers seem immune from such changes. The power of a closed shop and the ability to hold customers / passengers hostage to strike action combines to allow them to demand and get perhaps disproportionately high salaries. The refusal to accept technological changes in the industry is to my mind not acceptable. I agree that one man trains are not the answer but there has to be an acceptance that the industry must move forward. The answer for the train companies is not simply to spend more but to spend wisely - on infrastructure, rolling stock and technology - and not caving in to wage demand tactics more relevant to the 1970's. All jobs evolve, move with the times, don't sit in entrenched positions refusing to embrace change.

[MadAmster]

It's an interesting point that the driver is there for when the automated systems cannot act or fail to act, so they effectively ae watchman / brakeman - whilst letting the train drive itself. Agree that's the reality of the job, although wonder whether that role merits what will approach 90k a year in a couple of years time. A lot of that high salary was developed in an era when the role was more hand on / less automated, yet it has not gone down as technology has crept in. Many jobs (my own included) have downgraded and have become less well remunerated because of tech, yet train drivers seem immune from such changes. The power of a closed shop and the ability to hold customers / passengers hostage to strike action combines to allow them to demand and get perhaps disproportionately high salaries. The refusal to accept technological changes in the industry is to my mind not acceptable. I agree that one man trains are not the answer but there has to be an acceptance that the industry must move forward. The answer for the train companies is not simply to spend more but to spend wisely - on infrastructure, rolling stock and technology - and not caving in to wage demand tactics more relevant to the 1970's. All jobs evolve, move with the times, don't sit in entrenched positions refusing to embrace change.

Depends on what terms and conditions are being looked at by the companies. If it's upping the number of weekends worked from 26 to 39 and then cutting the premium payments for weekend working or upping the number of night shifts and, again, cutting premium payments then I'm with the drivers who would, basically, be paying for their own pay increase. If it's the other things in the T&C's the companies wish to change, then mI'd likely come down on the side of the companies UNLESS, as the drivers claim, some of those changes will cause a decrease in passenger safety.

Might the current drivers be more willing to income changes if the companies came with a plan to keep their level of remuneration stayed where it is and a lower level was agreed for newcomers to the industry?

At KLM, pilots, together with the company, looked at costs and profitability and decided that the current levels of remuneration were not sustainable. They came to an agreement that saw the current staff keeping their levels of pay and newcomers earning less. At a later date, when the company got into financial trouble, the pilots lent the company something like €2Bn to keep it afloat and had, IIRC, a 2 year pay freeze. Could UK rail drivers be persuaded to be as flexible?

[swaledale]

Reform's Tice's latest bull**** is that the majority of UK citizens want to leave the ECHR, funny that no poll shows this to be the case, but then Reform do ahve strange ideas about what the ordinary voter wants!!

[MadAmster]

The current inflation and cost of living crisis is mainly profit driven rather than being wage driven.

[Andy_Faber]

Reform's Tice's latest bull**** is that the majority of UK citizens want to leave the ECHR, funny that no poll shows this to be the case, but then Reform do ahve strange ideas about what the ordinary voter wants!!

I think Richard is just trying to keep an ‘on the bubble’ issue in the public eye. He is indeed factually incorrect but the but the minority is a large one and who knows when the next incident might arise which moves the dial

[swaledale]

I think Richard is just trying to keep an ‘on the bubble’ issue in the public eye. He is indeed factually incorrect but the but the minority is a large one and who knows when the next incident might arise which moves the dial

As with Farage and his turn the NHS into an insurance system, its an agenda driven by those billionaires who are pushing for deregulation and the stripping back of protections so that there are opportunities for more profitable exploitation of the populace. Tice is an idiot, listen to what he says for 5 mins and no sentient person believes he has anything useful to say.

Its only an issue in the eyes of a few right wing zealots, plus a few idiots in the Tory party who are still banging on about a "foreign" court not allowing the Uk government to break international law.

Otherwise, the only people who even think that leaving the ECHR, are those who frankly haven't a clue what it does, why it was constituted or how it provides protection for their human rights. The thing about international law, is that whilst as with any law or regulation, it might appear inconvenient, if a country starts to decide what is or isn't convenient legally, then that country is on a slippery slope to authoritarianism. Even with the ECHR, there are still areas where the UK and others slip beyond what is acceptable.

What incident may arise that would justify leaving the ECHR? Most people in this country aren't that stupid fortunately.

[Andy_Faber]

What incident may arise that would justify leaving the ECHR?

That wasn't the point I was making. Public opinion, be it well-informed or not, on EHCR is not far off split down the middle (as with most things these days), and a clear and obvious (to the public) use of the courts powers to what is perceived as the detriment of UK could move sentiment towards the 'leave EHCR' POV. I'm sure its not on the labour agenda to contemplate it, but its on Reform and Conservative minds from what I can see. So, keeping it in the public eye is tactically smart, in case it is useful as a tool to entice voters at election time