O/T Prince Charles Tests Positive

[ramAnag]

You know what, I don't care if he lied. If Churchill, a well known manipulator of the truth in the early days of WW2, could lie to shield the people from the realities of early wartime setbacks, so can BJ. There are times that panic management needs deception and reassurances.

There will be plenty of time to rake over what we could have done better, and learn lessons, once we are past "the darkest hour". This really is a war, and sometimes the truth gets inconveniently in the way. So throw a bag over it.

When Tricky's Martians turn up, are you going to be out there telling them all our weak spots??

I think you’ve lost the plot a little today, GP. Not like you.

This isn’t ‘a war’ at all, although for some reason a number of people seem to be trying to conjure up something of the partially mythical wartime spirit.

It’s a battle against a common enemy that will be won by countries working together and politicians putting their egos to one side and following the advice of those who are more expert.

Yes, I agree that Churchill manipulated the truth during WWII, but that was approaching eighty years ago. Times have changed. Opinions are no longer formed by day old newsprint and the facts/lies (delete as appropriate) spouted by politicians are infinitely more check able. Also, unless we’ve vastly underestimated the Covid-19 virus, there is no requirement for secrecy. In this instance neither walls, nor viruses, ‘have ears’.

You still haven’t answered that question...just said you ‘don’t care’.

The truth is I suspect, that during his enforced (?) absence, Johnson has, like Trump, recognised his initial error - the herd immunity strategy - and decided to change tack. The next stage is the blatant lie...the ‘as I’ve been suggesting for weeks’ one in this case.
He hasn’t at all and neither has his Government but if you want to believe that ‘the truth inconveniently gets in the way’ in a ‘battle’ against a virus that’s up to you. I don’t...and although I genuinely wish I believed otherwise...I just think he’s living up to his reputation as an inveterate liar.

[swaledale]

You know what, I don't care if he lied. If Churchill, a well known manipulator of the truth in the early days of WW2, could lie to shield the people from the realities of early wartime setbacks, so can BJ. There are times that panic management needs deception and reassurances.

There will be plenty of time to rake over what we could have done better, and learn lessons, once we are past "the darkest hour". This really is a war, and sometimes the truth gets inconveniently in the way. So throw a bag over it.

When Tricky's Martians turn up, are you going to be out there telling them all our weak spots??

This comparison with wartime is tiresome and irrelevant! We are not fighting a war, we are dealing with a virus and whislt the more excitable media types may have used the overhyped comparison, in reality the scenarios are totally different!

Plus we are in a different world from World war 2 when society basically did what those in power told them and mostly believed it. I can't believe you actually said "the truth gets inconveniently in the way" of people understanding? Thankfully these days most people can understand the facts if communicated to them correctly!

As for ****ing martians ye gods I despair!

How has his lies and cackhanded handling of this crisis stopped panic? In fact its done the opposite looking at what has happened.

Oh well I guess if your happy with a liar and buffoon as leader, then no doubt you will be happy with the mismanagement and wont complain at the adverse effects of such a idiot being in charge of the country!

Oh and on leadership, how come it took the government over a week after the Germans had done it to organise flights to repatriate Uk citizens abroad? In some cases German authorities were actually providing help and assistance to UK citizens, when none was forthcoming from the UK government. Talk about piss up brewery couldn't organise one and yet the apologists still come forward.

Truly in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king!

[Trickytreesreds]

This comparison with wartime is tiresome and irrelevant! We are not fighting a war, we are dealing with a virus and whislt the more excitable media types may have used the overhyped comparison, in reality the scenarios are totally different!

Plus we are in a different world from World war 2 when society basically did what those in power told them and mostly believed it. I can't believe you actually said "the truth gets inconveniently in the way" of people understanding? Thankfully these days most people can understand the facts if communicated to them correctly!

As for ****ing martians ye gods I despair!

How has his lies and cackhanded handling of this crisis stopped panic? In fact its done the opposite looking at what has happened.

Oh well I guess if your happy with a liar and buffoon as leader, then no doubt you will be happy with the mismanagement and wont complain at the adverse effects of such a idiot being in charge of the country!

Oh and on leadership, how come it took the government over a week after the Germans had done it to organise flights to repatriate Uk citizens abroad? In some cases German authorities were actually providing help and assistance to UK citizens, when none was forthcoming from the UK government. Talk about piss up brewery couldn't organise one and yet the apologists still come forward.

Truly in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king!

Sorry,but it is relevent and it is a war!!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...irus-frontline


When I mentioned the war(no not in an Uncle Albert way), I was on about mistakes made with planning and preperation.
People all over the world were caught with their pants down.
being caught with your pants down, doesn't mean you lost.
All the best laid plans in the world can never cover every contingency.

Where do you want to start? Every situation had fore warning, information of growing storm clouds. Information of intent.
Plans were made, how ever they fell well short of a prevention of impending doom.

Poland 1939
Ardennes 1939
Pearl Harbour 1941
Operation Barbarossa, after a non aggression pact 1941
Falklands 1982

Shall I go on?
History is riddled with non preperation in many forms, from military to financial.
No I'm not defending Johnson/Tories like a blind servent.
He's made mistakes and will make many more if I'm honest. But exactly who else do you propose may be doing a better job?
All I see is point scoring. By all means criticise, but seeing as this effects everyone. Perhaps, the phrase "can we help?" may be be more apt.

I'm not getting into a personal slagging match with you Swale, you hate Johnson/Tories. I get it.
I voted for them and stand by it, compared to what was on offer. Until something better comes along, I will continue to do so.

[ramAnag]

Sorry,but it is relevent and it is a war!!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...irus-frontline


When I mentioned the war(no not in an Uncle Albert way), I was on about mistakes made with planning and preperation.
People all over the world were caught with their pants down.
being caught with your pants down, doesn't mean you lost.
All the best laid plans in the world can never cover every contingency.

Where do you want to start? Every situation had fore warning, information of growing storm clouds. Information of intent.
Plans were made, how ever they fell well short of a prevention of impending doom.

Poland 1939
Ardennes 1939
Pearl Harbour 1941
Operation Barbarossa, after a non aggression pact 1941
Falklands 1982

Shall I go on?
History is riddled with non preperation in many forms, from military to financial.
No I'm not defending Johnson/Tories like a blind servent.
He's made mistakes and will make many more if I'm honest. But exactly who else do you propose may be doing a better job?
All I see is point scoring. By all means criticise, but seeing as this effects everyone. Perhaps, the phrase "can we help?" may be be more apt.

I'm not getting into a personal slagging match with you Swale, you hate Johnson/Tories. I get it.
I voted for them and stand by it, compared to what was on offer. Until something better comes along, I will continue to do so.

I’m pleased you don’t want to get into a slanging match, me neither...but you really don’t ‘get it’.

1) My reaction to what is going on has nothing to do with my dislike of many Tory policies. I was indeed disappointed with the results of the last election and, by consequence, the Brexit debate but they are irrelevant to this.
I suspect Swale feels much the same, but we’re not some sort of ‘double act’ and I don’t speak for him. You might also remember that last year, when Brexit appeared to be the most menacing thing on the horizon, I freely admitted that certain Tories were doing a better job of opposing Brexit than the totally confused Labour Party.

2) Okay...there are similarities to wartime in so much as there are food shortages, queues at shops, schools closing or partially closing, limits upon personal freedoms and factories being put to alternative use. That, I accept, is reminiscent of war time/general strike/fuel shortage etc.
Beyond that it is, imo, completely different. Far from there being a need for secrecy and covert alliance this is a time when World leaders need to act together.
There is a common enemy but it is an enemy of all humanity not one of individual nations and leaders presented by other nations and leaders.

Certain individuals apart, and I know you won’t like it but Merkel springs to mind, our World leaders have failed to cover themselves in glory so far.
The Chinese screwed up, before possibly displaying the required urgency, Trump has acted in a way more fitting of a Ben Elton novel and Johnson, imo, has - as has been outlined in many ways elsewhere on here - been contradictory (no pun intended) and ineffective.
Even today a combination of Trump (again), Putin and the Saudis have managed to send the price of oil spiralling which is really going to help.

In short Tricky...this is a Global crisis...so where’s the ‘kin leadership?

[swaledale]

Sorry,but it is relevent and it is a war!!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...irus-frontline


When I mentioned the war(no not in an Uncle Albert way), I was on about mistakes made with planning and preperation.
People all over the world were caught with their pants down.
being caught with your pants down, doesn't mean you lost.
All the best laid plans in the world can never cover every contingency.

Where do you want to start? Every situation had fore warning, information of growing storm clouds. Information of intent.
Plans were made, how ever they fell well short of a prevention of impending doom.

Poland 1939
Ardennes 1939
Pearl Harbour 1941
Operation Barbarossa, after a non aggression pact 1941
Falklands 1982

Shall I go on?
History is riddled with non preperation in many forms, from military to financial.
No I'm not defending Johnson/Tories like a blind servent.
He's made mistakes and will make many more if I'm honest. But exactly who else do you propose may be doing a better job?
All I see is point scoring. By all means criticise, but seeing as this effects everyone. Perhaps, the phrase "can we help?" may be be more apt.

I'm not getting into a personal slagging match with you Swale, you hate Johnson/Tories. I get it.
I voted for them and stand by it, compared to what was on offer. Until something better comes along, I will continue to do so.

Theres no point in having a slanging match with someone who essentially admits acting like a Turkey voting for Christmas because that was the best option! Mind you even when I try reasoned debate, its pointless because you either don't respond or evade the points raised anyway.

For your information I don't hate Johnson or the Tories - I wouldn't ever vote Tory even though I'm pretty sure that their policies would benefit me personally (indeed Brexit as I've said before has provided an unexpected financial windfall just when I was winding down) because I know that they wont create anything like the society I would wish to live in.

Indeed the current crisis is demonstrating graphically how the previous Tory policies have damaged this country. How they made the poorest sectors of society pay for the mistakes of the rich and bankers.

Funnily enough immigration seems not to be a hot topic (unless its that futile call to close borders ban air travel) as people realise 1 in 8 people in the health service are immigrants!!

[ramAnag]

Tricky, you have identified an alleged ‘attempt to discredit Johnson and the Government by the left’.

I don’t know how true or otherwise that is. No more than usual is, I suspect, the answer...but you won’t be surprised by me being equally reluctant to believe the musings of Paul Staines, aka ‘Guido’ by you, who is a well known right wing blogger.

Truth is...proper procurement is one of the most important jobs of government. In this instance both Trump and Johnson, or if you prefer, the Governments of both the USA and the UK, have been found seriously lacking. I don’t pretend to understand all the intricacies of the situation but it’s interesting that both countries have changed their stance as expert and public opinion have become more united.

[Andy_Faber]

Tricky, you have identified an alleged ‘attempt to discredit Johnson and the Government by the left’.

I don’t know how true or otherwise that is. No more than usual is, I suspect, the answer...but you won’t be surprised by me being equally reluctant to believe the musings of Paul Staines, aka ‘Guido’ by you, who is a well known right wing blogger.

Truth is...proper procurement is one of the most important jobs of government. In this instance both Trump and Johnson, or if you prefer, the Governments of both the USA and the UK, have been found seriously lacking. I don’t pretend to understand all the intricacies of the situation but it’s interesting that both countries have changed their stance as expert and public opinion have become more united.

I actually think the left (or at least the official left, the Labour Party) have been pretty reasonable in towing the govt line, and should maybe have given them a gee up a bit earlier. Corbyn has for the most part been silent, McDonnell has been talking a lot of sense but playing catchup a bit, and thank God Owen Jones hasn't been conspicuous although I read he did try to put a gay spin on things early on (maybe I read that in a TTR post though). I think the govt have been towing the scientific line all through though, just the boffins were wrong about herd immunity

[Trickytreesreds]

Oh ome on RA, it doesn't matter where the article was from. I told you to read the quotes.
There is an international shortage going on, from "experts". Yet the Guardian prints an article and you never even question it, even though its a left wing rag.

Whether Johnson has it right or wrong is in truth a bit of both. But to put all the blame on him, is laughable.

Ask yourself this.
Could Johnson have got away in this country like South Korea with a total lock down?
All travel stopped/ and the population scrutinised?

This bit intrigued me, from the Guardian artilce.

South Korea employed a central tracking app, Corona 100m, that publicly informs citizens of known cases within 100 metres of where they are. Surprisingly, a culture that has often rebelliously rejected authoritarianism has embraced intrusive measures.

I would have liked to have seen it, but I cannot imagine certain politicians giving the government an inch on such a crack down.

Stop and search was proven to reduce knife crime. Yet certain elements especially in the capital kicked up a **** storm to get it halted.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019...n-black-people

So no, I don't believe it was a straight forward to implement anything here.
As we have both commented and agreed on. There should be no political point scoring at this time.
Hell will freeze over before that happens.

Corbyn and Nandy have been slaughtered over it.
It's easy to critise when you're not the one driving.

[swaledale]

Oh ome on RA, it doesn't matter where the article was from. I told you to read the quotes.
There is an international shortage going on, from "experts". Yet the Guardian prints an article and you never even question it, even though its a left wing rag.

Whether Johnson has it right or wrong is in truth a bit of both. But to put all the blame on him, is laughable.

Ask yourself this.
Could Johnson have got away in this country like South Korea with a total lock down?
All travel stopped/ and the population scrutinised?

This bit intrigued me, from the Guardian artilce.

South Korea employed a central tracking app, Corona 100m, that publicly informs citizens of known cases within 100 metres of where they are. Surprisingly, a culture that has often rebelliously rejected authoritarianism has embraced intrusive measures.

I would have liked to have seen it, but I cannot imagine certain politicians giving the government an inch on such a crack down.

Stop and search was proven to reduce knife crime. Yet certain elements especially in the capital kicked up a **** storm to get it halted.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019...n-black-people

So no, I don't believe it was a straight forward to implement anything here.
As we have both commented and agreed on. There should be no political point scoring at this time.
Hell will freeze over before that happens.

Corbyn and Nandy have been slaughtered over it.
It's easy to critise when you're not the one driving.

Ah another apologist for BoJo arises, but then you believe all his lies it seems so why would you admit anything other than you have trotted out before? Though its a fool who is easily fooled who pretends he is not a fool!

RA and others were not blaming Johnson solely, I believe the word Government was used which is a collective body, not sure why your so keen to make excuses for him, but then you with your ludicrous left wing conspiracy theories was apparently unable to believe that courts and especially the Belgian courts could reach adecision that was not a representation of the true facts.

Recently the whole scandal over how the Post Office secured convictions and jail terms for sub postmasters whom they accused of fraud, has revealed how lawyers, politicians (including some LIb Dems to their shame) were completely hoodwinked by the Post Office (indeed lied to in court) over grave faults in the IT system used, even the company that installed the IT was in on the fabrication.

But no you willing to pour scorn on the left, but the right wing rich elite who are the ones screwing you can do no wrong, like ****ing sheep to the slaughter, what a laughing stock you are!

Yes there is a shortage now, but funnily enough recommendations were made to the government over two months ago, they werent acted on!

Back in 2016 the Tory Government had a report which stated what was required to enable the NHS to cope with a flu like pandemic, the government chose not to act on it - most of those in power today were MP's and/or in government then and are culpable. The same people were those who went along with austerity and the wholesale cuts to the NHS, which has weakened its ability to cope.Never mind promising £350 million for the NHS, how about bloody listening to those who are experts?

They cant blame anybody else but themselves for the lack of preparation for this, I mean we did have SARS FFS!

[ramAnag]

‘Where the article was from’ always matters, Tricky. Always check your sources.

As it happens I do question Guardian quotes, but I usually find them reliable and, far from being a ‘left wing rag’ it’s one of just two newspapers in the UK that I trust.

I haven’t ever suggested that Johnson/the Tory Government have got everything wrong. I’ve applauded what I understand of the economic response. I admire the building of the new hospital in London and others elsewhere and I have supported the lockdown against the likes of Lord Sumption.

There are however many things that I believe to have been done badly and wrong. I’ve outlined them elsewhere. That’s my opinion and I’m not about to apologise for it.