OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

You can like 1 post without liking a person's general views. Anag has agreed with me many times on other posts, but has labeled me xenophobic on this topic. I agree with Ramspride on the on this 1 post from tricky.

This 1 post from Tricky is nothing but horse****! Its ironic, because he claims "the people" have been conned, yet their relative prosperity and indeed the social, employment and individual rights that protect people, e.g. the working time directive and numerous other laws came from the EU - those enhance ordinary peoples rights, something many hundreds of thousands of people have reason to be grateful for. Seeing as its such a big con, we seem to have done pretty well economically being in the EU, and whether people understand or not its that which has sustained public services like the NHS.

Neither Anag or I claimed the EU was perfect, but what system devised by humans is? But those preaching nationalistic separatism are utterly deluded, show me anywhere the big post Brexit plan that Farage has? We are indeed entering the era of post truth polictics, where as long as people like what they hear, it does not matter whether its true or even possible to achieve!!

Tricky is harking back to a different age, as most Leavers are, as for being able to sell anything on the Internet, jeez! What exactly do we make that people want to to buy??? Which countries do you think will be beating down our door and for what?

[ramAnag]

Not sure I 'labelled' you xenophobic Ram59. It obviously stung which may well mean that I was mistaken. As I recall I called you xenophobic because in one particular post you appeared to identify 'foreigners' with negative things. If I was wrong I apologise...the context was around the time of the Brexit vote and although I obviously don't know you personally at all, I have absolutely no doubt that a great many - not all - who voted for Brexit do indeed display a mistrust of 'foreigners' and were driven by xenophobia.

There is something deeply ironic about your concern for democracy Tricky. You recognise all that is supposedly undemocratic about the EU but you support everything to do with Farage and presumably his latest claim to be best placed to act as a conduit between the UK Government and Bernard Manning's - sorry Trump's - regime.
Let's be absolutely clear about this. Farage has stood for Parliament seven times and lost each time, what right has he got to claim to represent the UK? Trump got about 2,000,000 less votes than Clinton but, because of the bizarre electoral system, has somehow ended up as a very strong victor and Brexit is being driven by the will of just over one third of the British electorate.
How come you show so much concern for the 'undemocratic' aspects of the EU but appear totally comfortable with the other three examples of democracy being ignored/abused and where is there any evidence of either the much maligned Swale or I wanting to be ruled by bureaucrats from Brussels? Nothing could be further from the truth...there is a huge difference between recognising the benefits of a united Europe along with membership of the Single Market and believing that everything in the European garden is perfect.

Finally, given some of the attacks on Swale - and to a lesser extent myself - by some on here in the name of democracy, it may be worth remembering two names...Jo Cox and Gina Miller. The former was murdered (assasinated?) by some right wing knife wielding nutter shouting 'Britain First' and the latter is now afraid to leave her home. What price democracy and freedom of speech there Tricky?

[Trickytreesreds]

Not sure I 'labelled' you xenophobic Ram59. It obviously stung which may well mean that I was mistaken. As I recall I called you xenophobic because in one particular post you appeared to identify 'foreigners' with negative things. If I was wrong I apologise...the context was around the time of the Brexit vote and although I obviously don't know you personally at all, I have absolutely no doubt that a great many - not all - who voted for Brexit do indeed display a mistrust of 'foreigners' and were driven by xenophobia.

There is something deeply ironic about your concern for democracy Tricky. You recognise all that is supposedly undemocratic about the EU but you support everything to do with Farage and presumably his latest claim to be best placed to act as a conduit between the UK Government and Bernard Manning's - sorry Trump's - regime.
Let's be absolutely clear about this. Farage has stood for Parliament seven times and lost each time, what right has he got to claim to represent the UK? Trump got about 2,000,000 less votes than Clinton but, because of the bizarre electoral system, has somehow ended up as a very strong victor and Brexit is being driven by the will of just over one third of the British electorate.
How come you show so much concern for the 'undemocratic' aspects of the EU but appear totally comfortable with the other three examples of democracy being ignored/abused and where is there any evidence of either the much maligned Swale or I wanting to be ruled by bureaucrats from Brussels? Nothing could be further from the truth...there is a huge difference between recognising the benefits of a united Europe along with membership of the Single Market and believing that everything in the European garden is perfect.

Finally, given some of the attacks on Swale - and to a lesser extent myself - by some on here in the name of democracy, it may be worth remembering two names...Jo Cox and Gina Miller. The former was murdered (assasinated?) by some right wing knife wielding nutter shouting 'Britain First' and the latter is now afraid to leave her home. What price democracy and freedom of speech there Tricky?

Morning ramanag,

1. the Farage vote
Yes you're right. He has failed to get a seat. But is that because of where he fought it? We all know the UK election, first past the post system is flawed. Take Scotland, you can get 50% of the votes and 100% of the seats.
So in reality, has he failed? No he hasn't. He has pushed UKIP to the 3rd most popular party in the UK (inside 23 years), which outrageously, only has one seat in parliament. . They amassed half of Labours vote, which speaks volumes. So please stop undermining what Farage achieved.
British politics has been geared to protect the status quo for quite a while. It is changing, because folks want to clear out the rust.

2. I have nothing against the benefits of the single market. But why is the price for it so heavy?
It is a trade agreement, nothing more. You buy my goods, I'll buy yours and we won't use levies. Simples.
Where did all this bollox come from of European law, single currency, an army, flag, no borders, sucking in poor countries in expansion, un elected officials milking the honey pot for all it's worth.

3. I don't condone violence or threats.
Firstly, one psychopath who murdered an MP, isn't a yardstick. If I butchered an MP shouting allah akbar, would you associate all Muslims as anti EU?
Secondly, Gina Miller is only doing what she wants to protect the money making schemes her and hubby are on with. You may not know this, but she has deep links with BMW and launched their fleet in the UK. Close colleague of Spencer Churchill and the ETF funds. Yes, she wants the EU to keep her cash flowing. But she is another one who chooses to ignore democracy for self gain.
I don't agree with threats though, but the arrogance of the woman seems surreal.


ps, when it comes to threats and violence in the UK. Look no further than Corbyns army of thugs.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-lenin-8434836

Yes the poor worker even has its nasty side

[swaledale]

And there in lies your lack of understanding Tricky - how is the price of being in the Eu so heavy? How have you personally paid a price or the Uk citizen for that matter, haven't you and other people actually benefited from economic prosperity, 50 years of peace within europe, ability to travel freely for leisure and work purposes, enjoyed the services provided by business and other services such as the NHS due to european immigrants? profited from investment buy countries in the aerospace, automotive, pharmacuetical and financial sectors?

Your vision of free trade is simplistic, a single market assumes we all play to the same rules, i.e. that one country does not gain advantage by employing workers on poorer terms, makes goods that are unsafe or does not obey laws on pollution etc. Jeez look at how countries like China pollute and dump goods on our markets!

I've asked you before what laws passed by the Eu do you object to? How have they impacted negatively on you? or are you beguiled by the idea that human beings act in a mutually beneficial way if they are allowed to do what they like?

Whats your objection to including other countries in the club? Countries that not so long ago were under the iron rule of the soviet union, oppressed and economically disadvantaged? Does it not occur to you that actually helping and including other nations and having an organisation where cooperation is to their mutual benefit is a good thing? That is means conflict takes place in debating chmabers and law courts, rather than on the battle field? or are you so self indulgent as to believe that being outward looking and inclusive is irrelevant to your life?

AS for the grander european plan, yes there are flaws, the single currency is a good idea, why have all this *******s about exchange rates etc. But it was poorly implemented, as for the idea of not having borders, whats the issue - don't say it allows criminals and terrorists to move freely, because they are able to do that whatever the border controls, thats just an illusion of security. For example there are thousands of illegal immigrants in this country, nothing to do with our membership of the EU, more to do with our own useless ****ing government who don't bother to track them.

I go back to Farage, what vision has he set out for a post Brexit UK? None he is too busy swanning around brown nosing Trump!

Whatever Ms Millers motives, and your the king of conspiracy theorists whilst overlooking the obvious autocratic anti democratic agenda of Farage, she has a point and one that is so ironic that the Brexits complain that the sovereign democratically elected parliament should have a say over Brexit, when that was a fundamental point they made about leaving the EU.

So hypocritical, we like democracy when it serves our ends but don't like it when it doesn't!

And of course the poor worker have their nasty sides, thats human beings for you and one reason why institutions like the EU help to moderate that dark side!

[Trickytreesreds]

And there in lies your lack of understanding Tricky - how is the price of being in the Eu so heavy? How have you personally paid a price or the Uk citizen for that matter, haven't you and other people actually benefited from economic prosperity, 50 years of peace within europe, ability to travel freely for leisure and work purposes, enjoyed the services provided by business and other services such as the NHS due to european immigrants? profited from investment buy countries in the aerospace, automotive, pharmacuetical and financial sectors?

Your vision of free trade is simplistic, a single market assumes we all play to the same rules, i.e. that one country does not gain advantage by employing workers on poorer terms, makes goods that are unsafe or does not obey laws on pollution etc. Jeez look at how countries like China pollute and dump goods on our markets!

I've asked you before what laws passed by the Eu do you object to? How have they impacted negatively on you? or are you beguiled by the idea that human beings act in a mutually beneficial way if they are allowed to do what they like?

Whats your objection to including other countries in the club? Countries that not so long ago were under the iron rule of the soviet union, oppressed and economically disadvantaged? Does it not occur to you that actually helping and including other nations and having an organisation where cooperation is to their mutual benefit is a good thing? That is means conflict takes place in debating chmabers and law courts, rather than on the battle field? or are you so self indulgent as to believe that being outward looking and inclusive is irrelevant to your life?

AS for the grander european plan, yes there are flaws, the single currency is a good idea, why have all this *******s about exchange rates etc. But it was poorly implemented, as for the idea of not having borders, whats the issue - don't say it allows criminals and terrorists to move freely, because they are able to do that whatever the border controls, thats just an illusion of security. For example there are thousands of illegal immigrants in this country, nothing to do with our membership of the EU, more to do with our own useless ****ing government who don't bother to track them.

I go back to Farage, what vision has he set out for a post Brexit UK? None he is too busy swanning around brown nosing Trump!

Whatever Ms Millers motives, and your the king of conspiracy theorists whilst overlooking the obvious autocratic anti democratic agenda of Farage, she has a point and one that is so ironic that the Brexits complain that the sovereign democratically elected parliament should have a say over Brexit, when that was a fundamental point they made about leaving the EU.

So hypocritical, we like democracy when it serves our ends but don't like it when it doesn't!

And of course the poor worker have their nasty sides, thats human beings for you and one reason why institutions like the EU help to moderate that dark side!

Just your own opinion.
It has been listed time and again the negatives in this thread. You just chose to ignore them.
That's your prerogative of course.
I concur about our useless governments, but it was at it's worst under Labour who opened the floodgates.
So you're still telling me, that the 3 million(under estimation)influx does nothing but good in relation to-
Housing/house prices/rents/NHS/Jobs at the low level/wage suppression/schools/congestion, in fact anything of service has been effected.
Don't give me all that bollox of it's a positive either. The common low end person is the one who has suffered.
I personally when interviewing, have had young lads with tears in their eyes chasing a minimum wage job. Where they normally see the post taken by a mid 20's Pole. we are destroying a generation and creating an under class.

Of course we need immigration, but why an open door and access to all the silly benefits we deal out?
Perhaps, you should also speak to the fishing fleet, which has been decimated in return, for the Spanish and French to rape our territorial waters.

As for the Iron curtain counties? How can you absorb countries not on the same economic ladder and not pay a price?
I suppose you're going to tell me next that the Euro, has been a wonderful friend to Portugal/Spain/Italy/Greece. 50% UNDER 25 unemplyment. You cannot suddenly change a countries financial level over night and not expect trouble.
Where do you think all these are going to go? That's right, across Europe. It suits the design as well, to bring about the merging of the continent plan.
Your statement about Europe peace is laughable as well.
I suppose NATO has done nothing to unify the way we see our enemies then? It's all down to the good old EU.
I'm beginning to think you write propaganda for Junker and Schultz.

It's time we did get a grip on the illegals in this country.
Shut the door with a visa system and sort out the free money trap. That'll do me.

[ramAnag]

Nevertheless Tricky...it was an outspoken 'Remainer' who was murdered...another outspoken 'Remainer' and her family who cannot leave the house...'Remainers' like Swale and I who get told...'if you don't like it, **ck off to Europe' and your lovely Nigel who threatens street demonstrations and civil unrest because the law over Parliamentary sovereignty was upheld.
Democracy and law and order seems to be something you, Farage and Trump only want when it benefits you. What was it Trump said...'I'll accept the result...if I win!' Sums it up for me.

[swaledale]

What Ive said is demonstrable facts, what you have trumpeted is your very biased opinion and based on myths put out as facts and general negativity spun in a right wing media run by an autocratic aged powerful people who Farage is an apologist for.

What *******s abut poor youth being disadvantaged by eastern european migrants "stealing" their jobs - in places where this is howled the loudest, there are hardly any migrants, such as the north east, lowestoft, clacton.

Workers have seen their real wages suffer over the past decade, but the economists at the LSE’s centre for economic performance said the cause was the deep recession that began in 2008, rather than the more than tripling in immigrants from other EU countries between 1995 and 2005.

The research said that median real wages for those born in the UK had grown robustly from the late 1990s until the global financial crisis – a period when migration into the UK was boosted by the accession to the EU of former communist countries such as Poland.

The areas of Britain that have seen the biggest rises in workers from the rest of Europe have not suffered sharper falls in pay or seen a bigger reduction in job opportunities than other parts of the country. Fuuny that? Does not seem to echo your views!

The LSE study, also said that goods and services consumed by migrants raised the level of demand in the British economy and created opportunities for UK-born workers.

Workers have seen their real wages suffer over the past decade, but the cause was the deep recession that began in 2008, rather than the more than tripling in immigrants from other EU countries between 1995 and 2005.

The research said that median real wages for those born in the UK had grown robustly from the late 1990s until the global financial crisis – a period when migration into the UK was boosted by the accession to the EU of former communist countries such as Poland.

Tricky these are real data, not biased views based on a false perception. Have you not considered that many of those who claim not to be able to get a job due to immigration can't get a job because they are poorly educated, poorly motivated and frankly unemployable? I've worked with may employers who have tried in vain to offer jobs to UK people in disadvantaged areas, only to find that they did not sufficient employable UK citizens applying for the jobs in the first place (and i'm talking well paid jobs with prospects not minimum wage), and a substantial number of those that did lacked the motivation to even turn up to work on time!

The Euro has not been the issue with the countries you mention, either their acceptance into the Euro when they did not meet the economic conditions or their mismanagement of their economies led to their downfall..I mean ****ing greece, where nobody pays taxes! Again I did not say the Euro was perfect or that its introduction had been handled properly, but there is no reason in principle why it should not work .

You talk about paying a price for the inclusion of the eastern european countries, how has that impacted on YOU?

“EU immigrants pay more in taxes than they use public services and therefore they help to reduce the budget deficit. Immigrants do not have a negative effect on local services such as education, health or social housing; nor do they have any effect on social instability as indicated by crime rates.”

The fact is the UK government has mismanaged the provision of infrastructure and migrants and the Eu are scapegoats for this.

Your examples are always vague references to others and the poor people, who aren't in that position due to the EU, but due to the indifference of successive governments of whatever political persuasion -the economic crash has impacted and policy has been deliberately targetted at poorer sections of society.

You have never explained how the Eu has had a negative impact on you, not one example have you provided I mean what laws and regulations have ****ed you up?

Oh jeez, now you mention fishing - whatever the imperfections of EU policy in this area the truth is that over fishing by Uk fishermen devastated fish stocks long before the EU, as with many things the Eu is seen as convenient scapegoat.

You confuse NATO and relationships with Russia and stopping war and the Eu which actually has ensured that peace remains amongst its member states or is it so long ago that you cannot remember european history!

You really should stop reading the gutter press and find a few facts to back up your wild assertions!

[southernram22]

greed

[ramAnag]

greed

Succinct.

[swaledale]

greed

In part yes, though also fast changing times, technological advances removing semi skilled jobs, global mobility of capital and the means of production, governments are supposed to even out the negative effects but the current one just wants people to work their *******s off for piss poor wages, just pop over to the good ole USA and see how the American dream and swathes of working classes and indeed middle classes who have basically been left to rot and scrabble around for a living, now that one can't blame on the EU!!