O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[magpie_mania]

What you’re talking about is the notion of collective responsibility where members of a Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet are expected to publicly defend a policy position even if they’ve had disagreements behind closed doors. In that sense you’re absolutely right that even a conviction politician has to accept a certain degree of compromise and nuance if they’re ever going to be a member of any cabinet, because the chances of achieving unanimity with your leader or other cabinet colleagues on every issue are minimal. Sometimes those inner tensions can be substantial and yes, sometimes it will involve publicly advocating policies that you are not privately happy with. However, for a conviction politician there must come a breaking point where you can no longer accept that compromise, in which case the honourable thing to do is resign or challenge the leadership. In Thatcher’s case she challenged Heath.

I find it difficult to believe that Starmer didn’t reach a point in the Corbyn Shadow Cabinet where he realised that the differences between him and Corbyn were beyond the point of tolerance or compromise, but at no point did he take any action. Therefore, his ‘official’ position, right up until the point Corbyn resigned, was that he supported the leader and the policies he had been advocating, even though we know from Starmer’s actions since that he certainly did not.

As sidders said in an earlier post, Starmer played the political game and won. Rather than challenge Corbyn or resign, both of which would have been highly risky strategies for his leadership ambitions, he waited until Corbyn quit and then entered the leadership contest. The fact that Starmer is now leader of the Labour Party would suggest his tactics were successful, and I don’t doubt that many other politicians would play the same game in the same circumstances. However, having done so, don't then pretend to represent all things virtuous and true. Don't suddenly lay claim to the principles of ‘integrity’, ‘selflessness’, ‘honesty’ and ‘openness’, which is exactly what Starmer has done on several occasions since. He is a trained liar (sorry, lawyer, same difference) who is just as willing to play the smoke and mirrors game for his own ends as anyone else in upper echelons of politics these days.

Collective responsibility is important, and most of the time it is better to try to influence from the inside than throw stones from the outside.

I haven't heard Starmer make the claims you said he has on several occasions. I can only base my thoughts on what I have seen and heard which is that Starmer appears honest while Johnson is the polar opposite.

[jackal2]

Please position me in order that I can see all these boasts by Starmer about integrity, selflessness etc because I can't find them. He has certainly implied that he has more of these qualities than the present PM but then so does Dominic Cummings.

I'll link you to one of many of the examples of the line of attack he's been using for some time:

https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/sta...70538075578368

As you say, it's usually in the context of attacking the PM's lack of these qualities, but the unavoidable implication is that Starmer lays claim to these principles himself, which in my opinion he has no particular right to do, given the political games he has played to get where he wanted to be. You might disagree, which is fair enough.

Your placing lawyers and trained liars in the same camp is offensive and says more about you than it does about any lawyer.

Are you a lawyer or are you just taking offence on behalf of others in that fine liberal/left-wing tradition? I should think most lawyers are wealthy and thick-skinned enough not to be offended by mildly tongue-in-cheek asides on the Notts County MAD Messageboard. Let’s just say lawyers are well-trained in constructing a case to present their clients in a best light that may not be entirely accurate.

[magpie_mania]

I'll link you to one of many of the examples of the line of attack he's been using for some time:

https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/sta...70538075578368

As you say, it's usually in the context of attacking the PM's lack of these qualities, but the unavoidable implication is that Starmer lays claim to these principles himself, which in my opinion he has no particular right to do, given the political games he has played to get where he wanted to be. You might disagree, which is fair enough.



Are you a lawyer or are you just taking offence on behalf of others in that fine liberal/left-wing tradition? I should think most lawyers are wealthy and thick-skinned enough not to be offended by mildly tongue-in-cheek asides on the Notts County MAD Messageboard. Let’s just say lawyers are well-trained in constructing a case to present their clients in a best light that may not be entirely accurate.

Why has Starmer no right to remind Johnson of the Nolan principles? They are the standards expected of those in public life. Here's the test - would Johnson remind Starmer of them? Absolutely not - he simply couldn't.

You talk about him attacking the PM - imo he has been quite restrained. It's Johnson who loses it at PMQs. I honestly believe that as PM Starmer would do a better, more honest job. Then again, so would most other MPs.

[jackal2]

Why has Starmer no right to remind Johnson of the Nolan principles? They are the standards expected of those in public life. Here's the test - would Johnson remind Starmer of them? Absolutely not - he simply couldn't.

You talk about him attacking the PM - imo he has been quite restrained. It's Johnson who loses it at PMQs. I honestly believe that as PM Starmer would do a better, more honest job. Then again, so would most other MPs.

Johnson is a proven campaigner and election winner but he is not a particularly smart political operator or a man of strong ideology and conviction. He tells outright lies that are often easy and obvious to disprove, and he advocates policies in which he clearly does not always believe, as betrayed by his contradictory actions. Since Dominic Cummings left, these vulnerabilities have been much more apparent.

Starmer, possibly due to his legal training, is smarter at the political game and is much more adept at concealing his various contradictions and disingenuous positions and creating the impression of honesty, but that's all it is - an image. The tactics he has adopted to move through the ranks and win the Labour leadership are cunning and politically astute, but they have very little to do with integrity. Essentially he's just better at the game of deception than the PM.

The antidote to these types will be a (Conservative or Labour) leader with strong and consistent political convictions who actually lives the life they preach to others, but bloody hell it’s tough identifying one of those amongst the current realistic contenders in either party.

[americanpie]

Johnson is a proven campaigner and election winner but he is not a particularly smart political operator or a man of strong ideology and conviction. He tells outright lies that are often easy and obvious to disprove, and he advocates policies in which he clearly does not always believe, as betrayed by his contradictory actions. Since Dominic Cummings left, these vulnerabilities have been much more apparent.

Starmer, possibly due to his legal training, is smarter at the political game and is much more adept at concealing his various contradictions and disingenuous positions and creating the impression of honesty, but that's all it is - an image. The tactics he has adopted to move through the ranks and win the Labour leadership are cunning and politically astute, but they have very little to do with integrity. Essentially he's just better at the game of deception than the PM.

The antidote to these types will be a (Conservative or Labour) leader with strong and consistent political convictions who actually lives the life they preach to others, but bloody hell it’s tough identifying one of those amongst the current realistic contenders in either party.

Well said jackal2 ...Put into words much more eloquently than I could ! But...exactly my thoughts

[magpie_mania]

Johnson is a proven campaigner and election winner but he is not a particularly smart political operator or a man of strong ideology and conviction. He tells outright lies that are often easy and obvious to disprove, and he advocates policies in which he clearly does not always believe, as betrayed by his contradictory actions. Since Dominic Cummings left, these vulnerabilities have been much more apparent.

Starmer, possibly due to his legal training, is smarter at the political game and is much more adept at concealing his various contradictions and disingenuous positions and creating the impression of honesty, but that's all it is - an image. The tactics he has adopted to move through the ranks and win the Labour leadership are cunning and politically astute, but they have very little to do with integrity. Essentially he's just better at the game of deception than the PM.

The antidote to these types will be a (Conservative or Labour) leader with strong and consistent political convictions who actually lives the life they preach to others, but bloody hell it’s tough identifying one of those amongst the current realistic contenders in either party.

'The tactics he has adopted to move through the ranks and win the Labour leadership are cunning and politically astute, but they have very little to do with integrity. Essentially he's just better at the game of deception than the PM.'

What were these tactics, and what deception has he shown?

How many times has he been sacked for lying? How many police investigations into his behaviour?

[jackal2]

'The tactics he has adopted to move through the ranks and win the Labour leadership are cunning and politically astute, but they have very little to do with integrity. Essentially he's just better at the game of deception than the PM.'

What were these tactics, and what deception has he shown?

See post #1925 for my take on Starmer. I'm guessing you have a different one, which is fine.

[TheBlackHorse]

... don't be so sensitive Sidders. Parliament is full of lawyers/trained liars, which is why I would ban lawyers from becoming MP's. Furthermore, I wouldn't allow anyone to become an MP under the age of 35yrs in order to stop the career politicians who've never done a sound days work. These an other factors will become reality in our New Order. It's just that I haven't worked out how to complete the Revolution. Must ask Dominic ...

[magpie_mania]

... don't be so sensitive Sidders. Parliament is full of lawyers/trained liars, which is why I would ban lawyers from becoming MP's. Furthermore, I wouldn't allow anyone to become an MP under the age of 35yrs in order to stop the career politicians who've never done a sound days work. These an other factors will become reality in our New Order. It's just that I haven't worked out how to complete the Revolution. Must ask Dominic ...

Would you allow Johnson to become PM?

Proven liar multiple times.

This 'never done a sound day's work' is blatantly incorrect. As is your assessment of lawyers. We need younger MP's imo - a balance across the whole age range.

I don't care what they have done before if they are the right person, have the right qualities.

[TheBlackHorse]

... OK mania ... BJ is not a leader, he's a writer with presentation skills. Now go and check how many MP's complete university with some useless degree, become a researcher/gofa/other support work, ie., no real world work experience, are then set up to fight an election as part of their grooming. The whole system is wrotten to the core.