OT. Schools...normality and Coronavirus.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Spoke to a friend in Denmark a week ago - they were down to 5 cases a day at the time. We are still much higher than that, but getting better daily. June 1st is still a week away, with a fair wind we may be at a similar level when we reopen, but there will still be hotspots I suspect where rates are still too high. This is one problem with across the board reopening.

The regional approach may yet have traction and there could be attractions to slowing the reopening in certain areas, but there isnt that much of the term left. What we have to avoid though if we have a more flexible approach to reopening, is the incidence of nimby-ism that may arise. There is no obvious reason why this should all happen everywhere on the same day.

Following on, allow me to present another option, if only for debate. Since the school summer holidays are soon upon us, why not keep the schools open in July and part of August, since the kids have had what is to them an "early summer holiday" for the past 9 weeks, albeit interspersed with some home teaching. This would allow a staggered reopening in some of the hotspots. There are no deadlines presented by exams etc, so no need to adopt a hard and fast shut down for holidays that noone will be taking!

It seems likely that the traditional summer holiday in the sun overseas isnt going to happen for most this year, so why not shift the terms around a bit, let the economy kick start without the disruption of a lot of the adult workforce disappearing for a couple of weeks or having to make arrangements for child care.

Now that would be value added provided by our education workforce who could earn national gratitude. We could clap for teachers/TAs etc every Tuesday...........

[ramAnag]

Spoke to a friend in Denmark a week ago - they were down to 5 cases a day at the time. We are still much higher than that, but getting better daily. June 1st is still a week away, with a fair wind we may be at a similar level when we reopen, but there will still be hotspots I suspect where rates are still too high. This is one problem with across the board reopening.

The regional approach may yet have traction and there could be attractions to slowing the reopening in certain areas, but there isnt that much of the term left. What we have to avoid though if we have a more flexible approach to reopening, is the incidence of nimby-ism that may arise. There is no obvious reason why this should all happen everywhere on the same day.

Following on, allow me to present another option, if only for debate. Since the school summer holidays are soon upon us, why not keep the schools open in July and part of August, since the kids have had what is to them an "early summer holiday" for the past 9 weeks, albeit interspersed with some home teaching. This would allow a staggered reopening in some of the hotspots. There are no deadlines presented by exams etc, so no need to adopt a hard and fast shut down for holidays that noone will be taking!

It seems likely that the traditional summer holiday in the sun overseas isnt going to happen for most this year, so why not shift the terms around a bit, let the economy kick start without the disruption of a lot of the adult workforce disappearing for a couple of weeks or having to make arrangements for child care.

Now that would be value added provided by our education workforce who could earn national gratitude. We could clap for teachers/TAs etc every Tuesday...........

You really don’t get it do you?

1) Teachers have been working. Not in the way they might have been admittedly, but they have been fulfilling their contracts in terms of ‘directed time’.

2) Some kids, those by and large who have parents that either don’t care or aren’t sufficiently capable or confident, may have had an early ‘summer holiday’...many others haven’t and have been working hard, supported by their teachers.

3) Do you want teachers to teach...or just provide a child minding service so that the economy may resume? If you want the former it isn’t going to work, partly because, as has already been shown, so many parents are not going to send their kids to school and partly because successful teaching of classes requires good overall attendance. If you want the latter you’d better have mighty deep pockets because an average sized class of 27 - or even the new 15 - is going to cost a great deal more in terms of child minding than teaching.

Just out of interest...has your son gone back to Uni or is he still at home? I suspect the former...but supposing I’m wrong, would you be happy for him to return at the moment?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Sorry, I get it 100% and I am aware of the role of teachers in e-learning and vulnerable child teaching at the moment, but I know several less than gainfully employed. The extended / modified terms would be more by way of childcare and catch up teaching for those who perhaps had not been so diligent in home learning. but most importantly it would allow a return to work for many working parents. I know that is not what teachers have spent 5 years qualifying to do, but everyone has to make short term changes in these unusual times

The main point being, and in order to allay your safety fears in some way, flexible terms would allow a staggered return to teaching so that the more vulnerable hot spots of covid exposure could take more time to become less hostile environments. I dont see June 1 as a magic date, but equally we cannot wait until September to start to make moves.

For people to go back to work, there has to be some sort of child care arrangements (as with most school summer holiday periods) and it seems to me that the schools would be a better environment for this that the traditional childminder where half a dozen kids can be crammed in a single room with several adults? That also leaves the chidminders to operate with below school age kids and apply a bit more social distancing. A win-win surely?

Flexibility will be how we move forward and emerge sort of intact against this virus, we have all had to do that - yes even us stopathome pen pushers. Some will find it harder than others based on their chosen career paths, but it will do noone any good to "do it this way because we always have"

Would I let my son go back to uni now? Well first off, he cant, so I have not needed to risk assess what that might involve. It also depends where he was going in terms of regional variances of risk. More to the point there is nothing educationally to go back for (like many kids of varying ages) nor do I need to stop working to look after him, which is central to my argument. Would he be better off in Norfolk than Surrey? Hard to say, he might be more exposed to the virus by his behaviour if he was with his mates and socialising more, but he has plenty of mates at home here and isnt exposing himself.

[AdiSalisbury]

I see our government have decided to let each school decide . Let them take the blame if it all goes wrong

That is a shame, they should be leading on that kind of decision making, after all it effects us all.

[swaledale]

That is a shame, they should be leading on that kind of decision making, after all it effects us all.

They should be leading full stop, but unfortunately they are not!

[Geoff Parkstone]

and finally:

"If you want the latter (CHILDMINDNG) you’d better have mighty deep pockets because an average sized class of 27 - or even the new 15 - is going to cost a great deal more in terms of child minding than teaching."

Im lost here, why would it cost anything. Teachers are already being paid over the summer - and no, Im not going down the "to sit on their arses in the sun" route, but I cannot help but feel that some of the preparatory and planning work undertaken in these months could be waived/modified in this once in 200 year event. this is what I mean by flexibility.

You have already said that maybe half of the parents would not want to send their children to school. That therefore solves your class size / room size / social distancing problem.

So why the deep pockets, or will teachers want "double bubble"

[Geoff Parkstone]

"I’d be much happier if it, and the three odd amigos on here, would recognise that a return to school should be done gradually on a region by region basis as part of an effort not to compromise the ‘R’ which is only where it is, between 0.7 - 1.0, because of the restrictions of the last couple of months."

I have postulated this exact same thing in my last couple of comments, accompanied by extending the summer terms appropriately to achieve a staggered return to school, whilst leaving a few weeks for teachers to have a break and recharge before a difficulat academic year 20-21 to follow.

But your response bore the hallmarks of "show us yer money", despite already being paid once already. I'm just glad that our NHS staff showed more "bottle" and got on with what needed doing on an altruistic basis in far more risky environments. I have to say that the old woodwork teacher in me would have been ashamed.

[ramAnag]

"I’d be much happier if it, and the three odd amigos on here, would recognise that a return to school should be done gradually on a region by region basis as part of an effort not to compromise the ‘R’ which is only where it is, between 0.7 - 1.0, because of the restrictions of the last couple of months."

I have postulated this exact same thing in my last couple of comments, accompanied by extending the summer terms appropriately to achieve a staggered return to school, whilst leaving a few weeks for teachers to have a break and recharge before a difficulat academic year 20-21 to follow.

But your response bore the hallmarks of "show us yer money", despite already being paid once already. I'm just glad that our NHS staff showed more "bottle" and got on with what needed doing on an altruistic basis in far more risky environments. I have to say that the old woodwork teacher in me would have been ashamed.

Firstly...if you read back you’ve begrudgingly come round to the region by region aspect that I initially advocated.

As regards the ‘show us yer money’ comment. Yet again you’ve deliberately misinterpreted my comment.

The serious part of my response was...teachers have been working...parents are not going to all send their children to school...teachers and families may be going on holiday (probably not abroad)...such conditions are not conducive to teaching or class learning.

The less serious part was...in my final year of teaching...admittedly a decade ago...I spent half the year as Acting Head and half the year as Deputy Head. Even then my salary only just reached £50k.

Now I’m going to do some sums...your favourite, my nightmare.
The average hourly rate for a child minder in this country is, I believe, £6.90.
The average class size in this country is 27.
Children are usually in school for between 6-7 hours.
£6.90 x 27 x 6.5 = £1210,95 per class per day or £6054.75 per week.
Over 39 term time weeks that would cost £236,135.25 per class of 27 per academic year.
Now I can’t be specific, but I do remember from my school management days of ‘splitting the budget’, that a very high percentage is spent on salaries.
So if the ‘child minding’ cost equivalent would be as above and my salary for heading up the whole shabang was a fraction of that, then you can see where I’m going...and no...I’m not complaining, don’t feel hard done by, am not making a point about downtrodden teachers or saying ‘show us yer money’. I’m just providing a little food for thought and suggesting you might be a little more appreciative of people who possibly contribute more than you might think to the well being of society.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Firstly...if you read back you’ve begrudgingly come round to the region by region aspect that I initially advocated.

As regards the ‘show us yer money’ comment. Yet again you’ve deliberately misinterpreted my comment.

The serious part of my response was...teachers have been working...parents are not going to all send their children to school...teachers and families may be going on holiday (probably not abroad)...such conditions are not conducive to teaching or class learning.

The less serious part was...in my final year of teaching...admittedly a decade ago...I spent half the year as Acting Head and half the year as Deputy Head. Even then my salary only just reached £50k.

Now I’m going to do some sums...your favourite, my nightmare.
The average hourly rate for a child minder in this country is, I believe, £6.90.
The average class size in this country is 27.
Children are usually in school for between 6-7 hours.
£6.90 x 27 x 6.5 = £1210,95 per class per day or £6054.75 per week.
Over 39 term time weeks that would cost £236,135.25 per class of 27 per academic year.
Now I can’t be specific, but I do remember from my school management days of ‘splitting the budget’, that a very high percentage is spent on salaries.
So if the ‘child minding’ cost equivalent would be as above and my salary for heading up the whole shabang was a fraction of that, then you can see where I’m going...and no...I’m not complaining, don’t feel hard done by, am not making a point about downtrodden teachers or saying ‘show us yer money’. I’m just providing a little food for thought and suggesting you might be a little more appreciative of people who possibly contribute more than you might think to the well being of society.

Apart from failing to halve your class size to account for non attendances by kids whose parents do not want them to go, that may be right. However, what is the value of this costing - to quote your past observations. None. teachers are already being paid, whether handsomely or not depends on your perspective . The teachers in their role as childminders don't have to pay for the facilities, they are there for free as would a lot of resources such as books, films, computers, TV and AV, toys etc. So you cannot compare a childminders fee structure to that of someone with a (virtually) zero cost base.

So lets take your 236k, halve it for only half class size, thats 118k. Halve it again as all facilities and resources are more or less already in place (Ive done flat rate tax returns for childminders, so know the allowances for these costs) and we get to 59k. Now lets consider that the average commercial childminder takes kids out on trips several times so they have fuel and vehicle operating costs, admission tickets and so on to pay out of their prices.

Well I reckon thats got me down below 50k a year being a reasonable pay

Oh yes and the childminder has to pay to feed the little cherubs too, so te schools must also provide that for free

[Ram59]

Yes that's true at the moment. Interesting Italy and Spain two of the worst affected counties have shut theirs till Sept7th I see our government have decided to let each school decide . Let them take the blame if it all goes wrong

From a practical view, this has to be the case. Different schools have different conditions, my children's and mine old school was massive in every way for a primary school. The classrooms are very big and could comfortably accommodate 15 socially distanced pupils and also has plenty of other classrooms to allow for smaller numbers.

Not all schools are in this position however and the individual schools will need to do their own risk assessments as to what is relatively safe, just like they do for all school trips.