O/T:- Banks

[MarcusCole]

The UK has not, in my mind, had a more right wing Establishment than it has currently.

The UK has never had a far right Establishment, thankfully.

First point - Thatcher

Second point - Good thing too

Can you clarify what you mean by establishment; to me it would be the Civil Service, the Courts, the Banks etc. Not the government itself though

[OchPie]

First point - Thatcher

Second point - Good thing too

Can you clarify what you mean by establishment; to me it would be the Civil Service, the Courts, the Banks etc. Not the government itself though

Sunak is overall about as right-wing as Thatcher was, and his cabinet is comfortably further right than Thatcher's was. No way Geoffrey Howe, John Major, Michael Heseltine, Douglas Hurd or Leon Brittan get into Sunak's cabinet.

The Establishment is where power lies. Government, those adjacent to government with significant power, yes certain people in the Civil Service, but also those who run the media and those think tanks (again, including the 55TS lot) who have the ears of all the above.

And most of those who bank, or want to bank, at Coutts.

[Newish Pie]

I generally don't take an interrest in industrial relations but from the little I have read about I wouldn't say they were Right Wing on this but rather will give somewhat grudging support to public sector workers but with a large topping of disapproval. Private sector workers seem to be treated as if they are the incarnate of evil. I will concede they probably lean right in this area.

I also agree that we need to keep talking about these things, it is only through dialogue that we can prevent things getting out of control. I've lived in the states and things are dreadful there. People rightly go on about how Fox is biased but forget all the other mainstream channels are equally biased towards the left. They (CNN etc) even go as far to call Black conservatives white supremacists simply for having the conservative viewpoints.

The failures of Trump are screamed out from CNN MSNBC et al while they cover up for the failing capacity of Joe Biden, then you get the failures of Biden are screamed out by Fox while they cover up Trump's incompetence. When I came back from the states and watched the news here I could see the BBC just trying to copy what CNN and NBC and MSNBC were doing in the states but having to be careful as there are rules they have to follow. When I watch stuff from GB news it just screams at me they are a bunch of amateurs but they do seem to be the ones trying to get other viewpoints across, probably because they are the ones causing waves.

My dad used to tell me the most important question is always - How do you know it isn't you that is wrong. I taken that to heart and like to look into how multiple establishments report on things. I find the Right wing media in most cases as bad as the left wing media with the exceptions of the Independant and the Grauniad, those sites just seem to push out click bait designed to make people angry.

Proved me completely wrong on my last question, fair play.

On industrial relations, it's always the same narrative, whether it's public or private sector or somewhere in between.

Management Suit: [reels off talking points without challenge]
TU rep: [tries to object]
Journo: [tells rep to be quiet]
Suit: [finishes points]
Journo: [asks TU closed, hostile question]
TU: [Tries to respond]
Suit: [Interrupts]
Journo: [allows interruption]
[Descends into confusing bickering]
Journo: "And we'll have to leave it there, thank you both".
[Even though TU rep's talking points haven't been heard]

Same on all channels. It's changed a bit with Mick Lynch because he's not afraid to go after the premise of the hostile question, and because he's box office. But in response, the questions have got more hostile.

I guess where I'd disagree is that I just don't see that CNN et al are the same as Fox. I'd quite happily concede that CNN might go harder on Trump than Biden, but to go back to OchPie's point about what impartiality is and isn't, Trump just did a lot more wrong than Biden. I don't see CNN pushing conspiracy theories about stolen elections or Obama not being American or whatever else the right wink crankocracy comes out with. It's very easy to look at the both and just decide that they must be equally bad in equal and opposite reactions, but I just don't think the evidence supports that conclusion. I can't think of any left wing equivalents to Qanon, birther-ism, stolen elections, or anything like that.

In a UK context, there are fringe left wing online media (The Canary, Novamedia (I think), and I tend not to take them terribly seriously either. But they don't have billionaire backers.

[Magpies1959]

EP I see the establishment as being the 'Lords' and the like, rightly or wrongly, and they are certainly not 'right wing', maybe more of them used to be before they lost all touch with reality, became senile lol.

[Elite_Pie]

As for arrogant, if you want to see it that way then feel free.

And if you want to see comments like "You really have no idea do you", "You actually think that? Wow, you really have no clue" and "Your response says everything about you really" as not coming across as arrogant, feel free.

Just so you know, only one of them was aimed at me.

[Newish Pie]

Newish Pie, my comment about 'thinking the same as Lefties', was aimed in particular at two or three members of this board, and the very hard line left wingers. Whatever you think about right of centre politics, those with that viewpoint are generally more likely to agree to disagree, rather than resulting to patronising comments, and hate speech, which ironically they 'made a thing'.

Och Pie please explain what you did say then.

I'm not sure which board members you're referring to. Perhaps I've not encountered them yet, because I've not read anything that indicates that anyone here thinks that.

As for "hard line left wingers"... I'm torn here.... there certainly are those on the left who are pretty shrill and are more interested in transmitting their views than in debating, still less actually changing anyone's mind about anything... and perhaps there's a tendency to jump to the most negative conclusions and treat people as if they embody all the views they dislike and jump to conclusions about them. But... the right wing is at least as equally capable of this. These are just facts about humans.

On the other hand, I also think the left and what people on the left actually think and believe is wildly distorted by the billionaire press. Either they're doing it deliberately or they're not bothering to do the journalistic basics, or both.

I'm not surprised that you find that people on the right are more likely to agree with you than disagree with you, and you shouldn't be surprised to find that my experience is the opposite. Although... now I come to think about it, the left has historically tended to be more factional than the right, so perhaps you're onto something.

Not sure what you mean by "hate speech". When I've come across that phrase before, it's had a pretty specific meaning, and I'm not sure if/how it applies here.

[countygump]

Sunak is overall about as right-wing as Thatcher was, and his cabinet is comfortably further right than Thatcher's was. No way Geoffrey Howe, John Major, Michael Heseltine, Douglas Hurd or Leon Brittan get into Sunak's cabinet.

The Establishment is where power lies. Government, those adjacent to government with significant power, yes certain people in the Civil Service, but also those who run the media and those think tanks (again, including the 55TS lot) who have the ears of all the above.

And most of those who bank, or want to bank, at Coutts.

At half time.


The score is Farage Rovers 2-0 Coutts. (2, OG's)

Seems the Rovers have a tricky right winger who has taken Coutts to task. So much so, that 2 Coutts left wingers have opted for a free transfer.

[Elite_Pie]

EP I see the establishment as being the 'Lords' and the like.

The Lords, but not the governing party in the Commons? My basic understanding of the establishment is those with the wealth and power. I did find this wiki definition of what the UK Establishment is:

"The United Kingdom has numerous entrenched groups that are regarded as forming the establishment: these include the royal family, the aristocracy, the landed gentry, prestigious public schools like Eton College and Harrow School, the privy council, senior civil servants, lawyers, academics, Church of England clergy, financiers, industrialists, the armed services and other professionals".

As a group, they are definitely right wing.

[Newish Pie]

Where does it state that I have to be tolerant of your views, and as for dismissive, you got that bit right certain views should be dismissed. If someone comes out with a statement that is laughable then it should be laughed at. If you have a point to make that can back up your position let me know, I'll consider it and if you are right I'll concede the point.

As for arrogant, if you want to see it that way then feel free.

Actually, I think you've got a point here. The idea that all ideas/opinions are worthy of equal time and respect and a platform is obviously wrong. Also, the idea that anyone can hold any views they like without consequences... that, I admit, is a trickier one... but if, for example, I said that I thought that all people with green eyes should be put into forced labour camps, or that there's no such place as Loughborough, or the gravity is a hoax, or that Wrexham are the underdogs actually, you're not obliged to take me terribly seriously. You're certainly not obliged to interview me on your serious news TV channel with the actual serious news.

I've shared this before, but this article (No, you're not entitled to your opinion) is great on this.

But in your earlier posts you have responded with dismissive one-liner posts... well, the kindest thing I can say is that they've not moved the discussion forward. But your last couple have, so fair play for that... I just assumed you were trolling and I'm delighted if I'm wrong about that.

[keldsyke]

At half time.


The score is Farage Rovers 2-0 Coutts. (2, OG's)

Seems the Rovers have a tricky right winger who has taken Coutts to task. So much so, that 2 Coutts left wingers have opted for a free transfer.

That’s one of the funniest things posted on here for a while 😂 (made me laugh anyway)