Election Year or Fear!

[MadAmster]

Dutch government leaked yesterday that they are intending declaring an immigration crisis based on the country's inability to cope any longer. There's already a shortage of 390,000 dwellings and the only asylum centre left open, they've shut the rest, is overly full. Full to the extent that it has a limit of 2000 "inhabitants" on any night. That was being exceeded every night so the Council in whose area it's situated took them to Court and got a ruling that the centre would be fined £15K for every night they exceeded that number to a maximum fine of £1.5M. The centre is funded by the taxpayer. So, the taxpayer has paid £1.5M to the Council. The Law dictates that the Council has to spend the money on immigration related things. The max was reached a cople of months ago and the Council is now considering going back to Court to be able to impose more fines.... which the taxpayer will be funding. Utter madness.

The soon to be declared crisis will mean it will become more difficult for asylum seekers to even enter the country and those who have already had their applications refused can be much easier to remove from the country.

They are also going to approach "Brussels" to get an opt out from much of the stuff they currently have to adhere to for a period of 18 months. Pretty much what Germany did last week.

[Geoff Parkstone]

And pretty much what many in UK want to see happen, albeit not in a European context

[ramAnag]

Ah but you forget the fact that the more kids you have the bigger the council house you can apply for / get. And given these heavy breeders likely don't pay much if any rent....

Its only one example, and will no doubt go down as hearsay and so dismissed, but I know of 3 single mothers who added to their litters in order to move up the waiting list / get bigger houses.

And it works - one now in 4 bedroom free council house, the extra children have been shipped off to be looked after by the fathers while mother sublets the extra rooms (despite benefits paying the full rent) for a not inconsiderable financial gain.

So heavy breeding can work financially for those cynical enough to do so

I don’t forget, GP…in fact I know it happens and have worked with some such families. They are however, the minority…and we shouldn't (imo) make policy according to the lowest common denominators…although unfortunately that is all too often the case with ‘laws’.

My point was that Sith is right to differentiate between those who CHOOSE to ‘suffer’ the financial hardships that having large families can bring with it and those who suffer ‘circumstantial’ financial hardship through no fault of their own. Having said that, without going back to the Dickensian days of the ‘workhouse’, if a two child cap was imposed…what do we (society) do when we see a third, fourth of fifth child suffering neglect? Please don’t answer that cynically.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I won't answer cynically as I don't know the answer. Don't blame the child blame the parent(s) - but other then taking children into care, is there a solution? There likely isn't enough capacity in the foster/adoption system to deal with it - and most of those in IVF process want a fresh one of their own rather than a compromised "used" one.

Long term the solution has to be the education of the parents into contraception and managing childcare sensibly. But how? There are differing standards of care provision - how do you educate people that a healthy diet and avoidance of obesity means "real food" not fast food: especially when the parents themselves are of the McDonalds generation. Am I (we) guilty of imposing middle class values on this as we were lucky enough to have better.

But it will only get worse as the next generation who are comfortable taking knives to school start to breed. I feel sad for future generations who have little going on for themselves and still less to look forward to

[ramAnag]

I won't answer cynically as I don't know the answer. Don't blame the child blame the parent(s) - but other then taking children into care, is there a solution? There likely isn't enough capacity in the foster/adoption system to deal with it - and most of those in IVF process want a fresh one of their own rather than a compromised "used" one.

Long term the solution has to be the education of the parents into contraception and managing childcare sensibly. But how? There are differing standards of care provision - how do you educate people that a healthy diet and avoidance of obesity means "real food" not fast food: especially when the parents themselves are of the McDonalds generation. Am I (we) guilty of imposing middle class values on this as we were lucky enough to have better.

But it will only get worse as the next generation who are comfortable taking knives to school start to breed. I feel sad for future generations who have little going on for themselves and still less to look forward to

Thanks…sensible answer…and having spent a good part of my professional life teaching and developing schemes about both contraception and eating ‘real’ not fast food (not simultaneously) I’m glad you appreciate how hard it is. Not sure it’s about imposing ‘middle class values’ any more than just common sense.

Think you’re a tad pessimistic when you describe a ‘generation who are comfortable taking knives to school’. Don’t think that’s actually the case. Throughout my teaching career, which included four decades, there were always a tiny minority who would have to be ‘dispossessed’ of knives, drugs, alcohol, bricks, needles, bike chains etc. From what I hear, from both those still teaching and grandchildren, it’s still a small minority…although vaping seems to be hugely on the increase.

[swaledale]

I won't answer cynically as I don't know the answer. Don't blame the child blame the parent(s) - but other then taking children into care, is there a solution? There likely isn't enough capacity in the foster/adoption system to deal with it - and most of those in IVF process want a fresh one of their own rather than a compromised "used" one.

Long term the solution has to be the education of the parents into contraception and managing childcare sensibly. But how? There are differing standards of care provision - how do you educate people that a healthy diet and avoidance of obesity means "real food" not fast food: especially when the parents themselves are of the McDonalds generation. Am I (we) guilty of imposing middle class values on this as we were lucky enough to have better.

But it will only get worse as the next generation who are comfortable taking knives to school start to breed. I feel sad for future generations who have little going on for themselves and still less to look forward to

Well you sound like my late Father, what is it about some over 60's that makes them have a blanket assumption that things in "their day" were better and the current generation is wayward/ doomed/ idle/incompetent and that the future is grim?

Is it something that affects certain people's minds, like the tendency to vote conservative or forget all the state funded education etc. etc. that our generation was in receipt of?

The next generation won't be comfortable taking knives to school. the majority aren't now. The issues of obesity affect all classes and income levels and are certainly not confined to one socio economic group.

Middle class values - mm are we imposing excessive levels of alcohol consumption on the poor then, given that the majority of "problem" drinkers, that is those who consume too much are what you would term middle class?

As for your anecdotal claims of poor people having children merely to get a larger social house and other such wheezes that they apparently get up to play the system. Yes it undoubtedly happens, though can you blame people whose lives are a struggle to survive using whatever wheeze to get by? However, its certainly not the majority and has been a "tale" going back years and generally reveals a level of looking down on those considered inferior.

Notably where are the tales of tax dodging that goes on to an extreme amount? The tales of undocumented immigrants used as staff, nannys, house keepers etc. by the very wealthy? Where are the wringing of hands over the cash in hand economy so beloved of the middle and upper classes so avoiding VAT, the self employed tax dodges etc. etc.?

Given that illegally unpaid tax vastly exceeds benefit fraud, one might think there is more to look at amongst the more well off in society?

This does smack of someone who reads rather to many papers that are filled with such nonsense, rather than an understanding of the true picture but I mean your far to intelligent to fall for blanket assumptions I'm sure.

[swaledale]

Well you sound like my late Father, what is it about some over 60's that makes them have a blanket assumption that things in "their day" were better and the current generation is wayward/ doomed/ idle/incompetent and that the future is grim?

Is it something that affects certain people's minds, like the tendency to vote conservative or forget all the state funded education etc. etc. that our generation was in receipt of?

The next generation won't be comfortable taking knives to school. the majority aren't now. The issues of obesity affect all classes and income levels and are certainly not confined to one socio economic group.

Middle class values - mm are we imposing excessive levels of alcohol consumption on the poor then, given that the majority of "problem" drinkers, that is those who consume too much are what you would term middle class?

As for your anecdotal claims of poor people having children merely to get a larger social house and other such wheezes that they apparently get up to play the system. Yes it undoubtedly happens, though can you blame people whose lives are a struggle to survive using whatever wheeze to get by? However, its certainly not the majority and has been a "tale" going back years and generally reveals a level of looking down on those considered inferior.

Notably where are the tales of tax dodging that goes on to an extreme amount? The tales of undocumented immigrants used as staff, nannys, house keepers etc. by the very wealthy? Where are the wringing of hands over the cash in hand economy so beloved of the middle and upper classes so avoiding VAT, the self employed tax dodges etc. etc.?

Given that illegally unpaid tax vastly exceeds benefit fraud, one might think there is more to look at amongst the more well off in society?

This does smack of someone who reads rather to many papers that are filled with such nonsense, rather than an understanding of the true picture but I mean your far to intelligent to fall for blanket assumptions I'm sure.

I mean if people had this attitude in WW", the country would have been ****ed!!

[SithHappens]

Well you sound like my late Father, what is it about some over 60's that makes them have a blanket assumption that things in "their day" were better and the current generation is wayward/ doomed/ idle/incompetent and that the future is grim?

Is it something that affects certain people's minds, like the tendency to vote conservative or forget all the state funded education etc. etc. that our generation was in receipt of?

The next generation won't be comfortable taking knives to school. the majority aren't now. The issues of obesity affect all classes and income levels and are certainly not confined to one socio economic group.

Middle class values - mm are we imposing excessive levels of alcohol consumption on the poor then, given that the majority of "problem" drinkers, that is those who consume too much are what you would term middle class?

As for your anecdotal claims of poor people having children merely to get a larger social house and other such wheezes that they apparently get up to play the system. Yes it undoubtedly happens, though can you blame people whose lives are a struggle to survive using whatever wheeze to get by? However, its certainly not the majority and has been a "tale" going back years and generally reveals a level of looking down on those considered inferior.

Notably where are the tales of tax dodging that goes on to an extreme amount? The tales of undocumented immigrants used as staff, nannys, house keepers etc. by the very wealthy? Where are the wringing of hands over the cash in hand economy so beloved of the middle and upper classes so avoiding VAT, the self employed tax dodges etc. etc.?

Given that illegally unpaid tax vastly exceeds benefit fraud, one might think there is more to look at amongst the more well off in society?

This does smack of someone who reads rather to many papers that are filled with such nonsense, rather than an understanding of the true picture but I mean your far to intelligent to fall for blanket assumptions I'm sure.

I find it amazing how people will (rightly) complain about companies like Amazon legally avoiding tax but condone the cash in hand tax dodgers.

When you think about all the small businesses or sole traders up and down the country taking cash for many of their jobs and not declaring it it must rival or exceed the taxes Amazon etc avoid.

I know several people who regularly take cash in hand.

We aren't talking a few quid, we are talking thousands in unpaid taxes from single individuals.

They even openly talked about it thinking it's just, not thinking that for every £1 they don't pay it costs me and everyone else paying tax a little bit.

That said I'm guilty of enabling it myself when I've been offered a discount to pay cash, and I've done it. If I was true to my beliefs I'd refuse but I doubt many of us do.

I suppose I justify it as I'm still not the one committing an offence. But it still wrong.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I find it amazing how people will (rightly) complain about companies like Amazon legally avoiding tax but condone the cash in hand tax dodgers.

When you think about all the small businesses or sole traders up and down the country taking cash for many of their jobs and not declaring it it must rival or exceed the taxes Amazon etc avoid.

I know several people who regularly take cash in hand.

We aren't talking a few quid, we are talking thousands in unpaid taxes from single individuals.

They even openly talked about it thinking it's just, not thinking that for every £1 they don't pay it costs me and everyone else paying tax a little bit.

That said I'm guilty of enabling it myself when I've been offered a discount to pay cash, and I've done it. If I was true to my beliefs I'd refuse but I doubt many of us do.

I suppose I justify it as I'm still not the one committing an offence. But it still wrong.

Technically, if it's VAT that you are avoiding (and you "know it") you are committing an offense - but for income tax you're.not - just aiding and abetting. And I'm just the same: discount for cash still works.

[Andy_Faber]

Sith you are making a point which won’t endear you to some here who believe big business/‘the rich’ are the greater culprits. I tend to agree with you you for the simple reason that my small band of tradesman brothers who all do business with me on invoice find it harder and harder to win business against cash only traders