O/T Which jab have you had?

[the_idiotb_stardson]

I agree with Grist (I've always wanted to say that). I think that there are many valid criticisms of the UK's response to Covid, but when the dust settles, our approach to vaccination will be seen as first rate - from the early investment in the AZ vaccine, through the early and generous ordering and into the 12 week gap strategy and slick roll out . We should be thanking our good fortune.

The treatment of Astra- Zenica has been shameful. Vaccines are not part of their usual business, but they were persuaded to work with Oxford University by the government. They have been rewarded for their efforts by being used as a smokescreen by European politicians who are trying to hide their failings and being bombarded with media scare stories (some of them driven by one of raging's favourites - Russia Today).

If we are smart, we should hold out the vaccine response as a model for a post-Brexit economy - tech and science friendly and where innovation is rewarded. Sadly, I don't think we are smart.

In favour of covid passports Kerr?

Curious to know?

Also interested in legal issues enforcing it.

Realise that is a huge question but a precis of your legal understanding would be appreciated.

[crashbang]

no passport needed for pubs. a landlord can fk you off if he doesn't like the look of your face. up to him.

[ragingpup]

That's actually untrue, only the Chinese vaccines are traditional vaccines like the one we use for flu (inactivated vaccines).

The Oxford one is an adaptation of the one they were working on to treat MERS in Saudi Arabia.

You can see the different types of vaccine here:

https://www.vaccines.gov/basics/types

As you can see the viral vector vaccines like the Oxford one and Sputnik 5 and messenger RNA vaccines like the Pfizer and Moderna ones have only been used on a wide scale to treat Covid.

From your own link:

For decades, scientists studied viral vector vaccine***ternal Link: You are leaving vaccines.gov and entering a non-federal website. View full disclaimer.. Some vaccines recently used for Ebola outbreaks have used viral vector technology, and a number of studies have focused on viral vector vaccines against other infectious diseases such as Zika, flu, and HIV. Scientists used this technology to make COVID-19 vaccines as well.

Viral vector vaccines use a modified version of a different virus as a vector to deliver protection. Several different viruses have been used as vectors, including influenza, vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV), measles virus, and adenovirus, which causes the common cold. Adenovirus is one of the viral vectors used in some COVID-19 vaccines being studied in clinical trials.

[great_fire]

The treatment of Astra- Zenica has been shameful. Vaccines are not part of their usual business, but they were persuaded to work with Oxford University by the government. They have been rewarded for their efforts by being used as a smokescreen by European politicians who are trying to hide their failings and being bombarded with media scare stories (some of them driven by one of raging's favourites - Russia Today).

Well that's yet another mistake by the government, they could have approached GSK instead who do have experience in producing vaccines.

[ragingpup]

I don't quite know what to make of that reply Raging?

So using the euphemisms of "persuade , cajole and legislate' for the government nudge units ( it is I would argue more appropriate to use terms like "scare" and "manipulate" but I won't quibble) of which you are aware ("no shi t") you then gobble up info from the state-media, BBC 1 Panorama.

So you are saying I know I am being cajoled but believe the media that does the cajoling.

Insanity surely?

State media propaganda? Panarama? Not saying that BBC or any other media organisation are above bias by any means, but that seemed like a sound fact based programme to me. Can you wantch it and throw evidence based questions at the research and facts presented?

I'm amused that the extent of media, government and especially the use of media and government by stakeholders for the purpose of populace 'pursuasion' should be a surprise and outrage to you is all. Especially as you link also to a Telegraph article! Of course the BBC can produce biased output, but the fact that extremists on the left and right claim they are the devil suggests that Auntie seems to have a prximity on balance. But I'd never pursuade an extremist on either side on that for sure

[ragingpup]

I agree with Grist (I've always wanted to say that). I think that there are many valid criticisms of the UK's response to Covid, but when the dust settles, our approach to vaccination will be seen as first rate - from the early investment in the AZ vaccine, through the early and generous ordering and into the 12 week gap strategy and slick roll out . We should be thanking our good fortune.

The treatment of Astra- Zenica has been shameful. Vaccines are not part of their usual business, but they were persuaded to work with Oxford University by the government. They have been rewarded for their efforts by being used as a smokescreen by European politicians who are trying to hide their failings and being bombarded with media scare stories (some of them driven by one of raging's favourites - Russia Today).

If we are smart, we should hold out the vaccine response as a model for a post-Brexit economy - tech and science friendly and where innovation is rewarded. Sadly, I don't think we are smart.

I agree with Kerr (never wanted to say that) on much of this. But RT a favourite?! Think I've only ever read that one article I linked to. You know the one Kerr, the one that you couldn't counter the argument provided within it, so instead you just slandered the outlet! Well you're in good company on here

Nice to see you back again, as soon as the mods give in and allow us all to spout our usual political drivel on the main board.

[great_fire]

From your own link:

For decades, scientists studied viral vector vaccine***ternal Link: You are leaving vaccines.gov and entering a non-federal website. View full disclaimer.. Some vaccines recently used for Ebola outbreaks have used viral vector technology, and a number of studies have focused on viral vector vaccines against other infectious diseases such as Zika, flu, and HIV. Scientists used this technology to make COVID-19 vaccines as well.

Viral vector vaccines use a modified version of a different virus as a vector to deliver protection. Several different viruses have been used as vectors, including influenza, vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV), measles virus, and adenovirus, which causes the common cold. Adenovirus is one of the viral vectors used in some COVID-19 vaccines being studied in clinical trials.

That's not widespread usage.

[gm_gm]

I agree with Grist (I've always wanted to say that). I think that there are many valid criticisms of the UK's response to Covid, but when the dust settles, our approach to vaccination will be seen as first rate - from the early investment in the AZ vaccine, through the early and generous ordering and into the 12 week gap strategy and slick roll out . We should be thanking our good fortune.

The treatment of Astra- Zenica has been shameful. Vaccines are not part of their usual business, but they were persuaded to work with Oxford University by the government. They have been rewarded for their efforts by being used as a smokescreen by European politicians who are trying to hide their failings and being bombarded with media scare stories (some of them driven by one of raging's favourites - Russia Today).

If we are smart, we should hold out the vaccine response as a model for a post-Brexit economy - tech and science friendly and where innovation is rewarded. Sadly, I don't think we are smart.

Couldnt agree more Kerr the organisation surrounding the vaccines has been nothing short of miraculous, the FT reported more than 1,000 EU financial firms are relocating to the UK, I suspect most of these will be fintech.

I think it shows the world that the UK outside the EU is worth investment, more so than when we were in the club

[gm_gm]

Well that's yet another mistake by the government, they could have approached GSK instead who do have experience in producing vaccines.

The government will be signing a contract with GSK to provide the back end solution to the new NE factory supplying vaccines

[KerrAvon]

In favour of covid passports Kerr?

Curious to know?

Also interested in legal issues enforcing it.

Realise that is a huge question but a precis of your legal understanding would be appreciated.

I am generally opposed to the concept of domestic vaccine passports.

I think it unrealistic to expect pub landlords and cinema operators etc. to police them. In addition, I suspect that any technological solution will prove impossibly clunky and any paper solution will simply spawn an industry in forgeries.

I am also unhappy with the concept. We are a country that still believes in government by consent. Whatever the opinion polls are telling the government, I don't think that large swathes of the public would accept having their freedoms curtailed unless they could see a very good reason for doing so, which they increasingly won't do as the vaccine roll out slashes the covid death toll.

I would be surprised if the government could get the necessary legislation through parliament. The Tories are naturally suspicious of goverment interference in personal freedoms and there would be a significant rebellion against any attempt to push the required measures through. The Lib Dems will vote against. It would come down to whether Labour would be willing to make a stand. That being said, a six month extension to the Coronavirus Act powers made it through, which surprised me. The Lib Dems voted againat that and Labour should have pushed for a shorter extension as a condition for their support.

If they are introduced, I suspect that domestic vaccine passports could prove to be Johnson's poll tax moment, whch might not be a bad thing for the country.

Of course it doesnt really matter what we do if other countries make vaccine passports an entry condition.