OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Is that why the latest set of figures for December have business confidence at an 18 month high of about 58 after dropping down to 47 in July in the post brexit scaremongering.

Or...to put it another way...that'll be the 'business confidence' that was at +15 this time two years ago, slipped to -47 in the immediate aftermath of the referendum and is currently running at -8 even before yesterday's announcements. Still never mind...our esteemed foreign secretary says other countries are 'queuing up' to do business with us and we all know how totally trustworthy he is.

[AdiSalisbury]

I always find it says a lot about someone's capacity to think for themselves when they start soap boxing about 'benefit scroungers', when it's tax avoidance from corporations and the elites which cost the economy so much more. You have to ask yourself why one angers you so much more over the other. And if you have any ability to reason left in you, you must conclude that the answer is, it's because that's what you were told to think. Hate the poor and let the rich keep screwing you.

It's not hating the poor, its hating those taking advantage of a system that is there for people who need it out of misfortune. Why should these people have all the things you burn your ass off for, for free?

[Ram59]

Or...to put it another way...that'll be the 'business confidence' that was at +15 this time two years ago, slipped to -47 in the immediate aftermath of the referendum and is currently running at -8 even before yesterday's announcements. Still never mind...our esteemed foreign secretary says other countries are 'queuing up' to do business with us and we all know how totally trustworthy he is.

I was referring to the purchasing managers index in which anything over 50 is seen to be a positive outlook, whereas you're claiming that businesses are gloomy because of brexit. Figures do go up and down because of the world economy, but a better idea of how brexit is affecting us is to compare our figures with others. In this case our PMI index is the highest of any leading industrial nation, including USA, China and Germany. Things are maybe not quite so bad as you make out.

[roger_ramjet]

I always find it says a lot about someone's capacity to think for themselves when they start soap boxing about 'benefit scroungers', when it's tax avoidance from corporations and the elites which cost the economy so much more. You have to ask yourself why one angers you so much more over the other. And if you have any ability to reason left in you, you must conclude that the answer is, it's because that's what you were told to think. Hate the poor and let the rich keep screwing you.

An interesting perspective here, but I question its logic.

The "benefit scroungers" take resources away from those perhaps more needy but in no way contribute anything to society except maybe boosting profits of the tobacco and alcohol industry! Per capita they may not take much in the overall scheme of things but if you compare them to people who put in a 35-40 hour shifts and more on minimum wage to survive and pay their rent then you can understand the resentment.

Equally the mega corporations that position themselves in tax favourable environments are also leeches on the system, not paying their fair share to the exchequer. Companies doing this, and I dont need to name name as those names are already out there, bugger up the money circulation argument by partly taking it out of the UK economy as untaxed profits. However they do employ significant numbers of people which reduces the burden on the state system and also, by doing so, contribute tax take to the exchequer via VAT and payroll taxes and NI. Where this goes wrong is if they use predominantly migrant labour - as many do - in which case the money circulation is further encumbered by not only repatriation of untaxed profits not spent in the domestic economy but also repatriation of excess net wages overseas which are thus not spent in the domestic economy. So I would say the jury is out as to whether they are good or bad - a mixture of both I reckon. Could be better, but overall our economy may benefit from the job creation, so long as it is using UK domiciled labour.

And so to the 3rd "devil" - the elite rich - by which one assumes you mean those savvy enough to use tax advisors or accountants to optimise, within the rules, their tax bills. The fault here lies with the makers of the rules who create the opportunities for those people to massage their tax bills favourably.

The root of the problem lies in personal jealousies - the haves despise the have nots for taking but not working - the have nots despise the haves for having more than they do. Both parties are equally guilty of playing the system, some for bigger amounts than others but one cannot overlook the fact that ultimately without the wealth creators, the have not would not have any safety ney to exploit.

Personally I would recommend a radical overhaul of the whole thing. Abolish income tax as it is so complex that it creates the loopholes. Increase expenditure taxes such as VAT and fuel/fags/booze taxes etc to partly compensate. Bring in a simple annual wealth tax so as to make up the gap. Overhaul the unemployment benefits system so that it is linked to employment history: if you aint paid in you cant draw out anything after a period of time. Obviously have to introduce safety nets for disabled, school leavers etc.

There is a strong argument in my mind for splitting and partly privatising the components that NI pays for: pensions are being eased into the private sector and imposed on the employer; medical care has had components of private insurance for years. So split out the rest of it and make it voluntary for people to pay into. If you dont think you will need unemployment benefit, dont buy into it. There is too much nannying going on.

Introduce better job training systems free of charge, and direct it to economic need: how many more social media graduates does the country need!! Make university education a privilege again and not a right - and invest in more technical colleges to teach basic skills, particularly IT and make most of it apprenticeship based so a combination of theoretical and practical learning. Simples! Well maybe not

[triz]

It's not hating the poor, its hating those taking advantage of a system that is there for people who need it out of misfortune. Why should these people have all the things you burn your ass off for, for free?

They shouldn't and it's unfair. The question is why it bothers you more than the rich swindling you out of much much more. And as I said, the answer is because you have been told to think that way.

[AdiSalisbury]

I haven't been told that, it's wrong that you make that assumption. It bothers me a hell of a lot that corporations swindle the tax system, especially as I complete a self assessment each year and have to save a large proportion of my profits to pay in tax / NI / student loan.

The scrounger thing is closer to home, we all know that person who's got a massive telly, PS4, and just come back from a week in the sun, only to hit the pub as soon as they come back, yet you know they haven't worked a day in their life. It's personal, why should I work and pay for them?

[triz]

I haven't been told that, it's wrong that you make that assumption. It bothers me a hell of a lot that corporations swindle the tax system, especially as I complete a self assessment each year and have to save a large proportion of my profits to pay in tax / NI / student loan.

The scrounger thing is closer to home, we all know that person who's got a massive telly, PS4, and just come back from a week in the sun, only to hit the pub as soon as they come back, yet you know they haven't worked a day in their life. It's personal, why should I work and pay for them?

You have been told that, it is no assumption. It's in papers every day, it's on tv everyday (the amount of benefit Britain type programmes) it's on the radio, it's on the Internet (including this very forum). It'spropaganda, to which we are all susceptible, but some are more aware of it than others.

Whenever I raise this point to people the standard answer is ALWAYS, I do care about the tax avoiders scamming us. And my response is always, well why do you only ever talk and moan about benefit scroungers (who cost us a minuscule amount in comparison). The answer always comes back to the same thing, you are being told what to think, wether you are aware of it or not.

[Trickytreesreds]

You have been told that, it is no assumption. It's in papers every day, it's on tv everyday (the amount of benefit Britain type programmes) it's on the radio, it's on the Internet (including this very forum). It'spropaganda, to which we are all susceptible, but some are more aware of it than others.

Whenever I raise this point to people the standard answer is ALWAYS, I do care about the tax avoiders scamming us. And my response is always, well why do you only ever talk and moan about benefit scroungers (who cost us a minuscule amount in comparison). The answer always comes back to the same thing, you are being told what to think, wether you are aware of it or not.

I get what Triz is saying, but I think when your next door neighbour is scamming everyone, it's more in your face.
He's living his life, on your street, in your local out of your own pocket. Usually laughing about it. Doesn't in anyway excuse the abuse of the system from corporate or the elite. It's because a fellow working class, is abusing the working class.

The facts are I could report my neighbour or give them grief. How can I scream at the elite scam?
More a measure of the governments we elect in both counts.

[triz]

Put simply. You work hard adi I'm sure, you pay your fair share in order to run the country and to pay for the services that you and the rest of the country use. However there are lots and lots of very rich people who earn a lot more than you who don't think they want to pay for the services they use, never mind services that others use (think Cameron's multi millionaire daddy). And that's before we come onto corporations. They are literally stealing out of your pocket. And a lot more than so called benefit scroungers. Now if there was uproar everyday over all our media about this instead of benefit scroungers you would be furious about that instead.Yes you would still be annoyed at the benefit people, but you'd rightly and logically reserve your fury for the people who steal more from you. But it just so happens those very people run the media you consume.

[triz]

I get what Triz is saying, but I think when your next door neighbour is scamming everyone, it's more in your face.
He's living his life, on your street, in your local out of your own pocket. Usually laughing about it. Doesn't in anyway excuse the abuse of the system from corporate or the elite. It's because a fellow working class, is abusing the working class.

The facts are I could report my neighbour or give them grief. How can I scream at the elite scam?
More a measure of the governments we elect in both counts.

I can see how it'd make you mad as its in your face (although it's not something I've ever experienced). But we need to think logically and direct our anger at the right people. And if enough people are angry stuff can get done. Cleverer people than me will force it to happen, but it won't ever happen as the 'look over there' tricks the elite pull will forever pull the wool over people's eyes. It's easier to punch down so that's what will happen.

Everyone knows trump was a mass scale tax avoider but idiots worship him, if he was a benefit scroungers he'd never have been loved by anyone.