O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[ramAnag]

I think that's what I was trying to say, I guess you and I may have a less benevolent view of the wide definition of underclass than rA does.

I'll correct that, you may, I do. I'm also a little conditioned at present by hosting a family friend who is on P347 of plausible reasons not to get a job (so, by choice one of rA's underclass) and also on P236 of alternative remedies to the Covid vaccination - current chapter 'steam therapy'. Oddly, she HAS had the vaccine but still believes in the alternative remedies

Andy, please don’t misconstrue me. I’d have a similar opinion to you of the ‘friend’ you describe. In fact I probably wouldn’t be sufficiently tolerant to regard them as a friend.
I am though, professionally not personally, aware of how difficult it is for those who don’t benefit from the presence of good, caring, capable, loving, strict, disciplined and competent parents to break that mould.
I’m honestly no ‘Mr Benevolent, in fact if your friend wasn’t a ‘she’ I’d be inclined to boot them up the backside and tell them to sort themselves out...but there are a lot of people who simply don’t know how to help themselves because they’ve never experienced the role models that I’d imagine all four of those currently engaged in this discussion take as a ‘given’.

[Andy_Faber]

there are a lot of people who simply don’t know how to help themselves because they’ve never experienced the role models that I’d imagine all four of those currently engaged in this discussion take as a ‘given’.

agree on that

[swaledale]

I wonder, for no better reasons than to wonder, what proportion of the UK population fell in rA's categorisation of underclasses and then what proportion of those are unvaccinated? I get that the homeless or travellers may fall through the NHS safety net if they are not registered with a doctor as they have no permanent address, but why would being poor mean that you are not within the ambit of the NHS system and thus have been offered a vaccination? In my experience the have nots are generally all too aware of what the NHS can do for them - based on being registered with a surgery adjacent to a former council estate.

The Cambridge definition of underclass is less than helpful as there will always been an underclass applying that definition, in the same way there will always be a team at the bottom of any football league, no matter how undeserving.

Fascinated by the obvious bias from you on this, not to mention some dubious taking of the moral high ground based purely on anecdotal evidence. Its a bit like me generalising that all rich people are selfish drunken *******s based on my experience of seeing many of them at corporate events. Some are some aren't.

Having worked with people in lower income brackets for many years I can confirm that they are no different from people with higher incomes, in that many are hard working and honest, some are criminals, some are lazy but otherwise untroubling of society, some have problems with drink and drugs, etc etc.

The only difference is that the more income and significant social connections one has then the easier it is to cope with issues such as drug addiction, getting a well paid job, decent housing etc.

The unvaccinated are not purely from any "underclass", I mean Premier League footballers can't be classed as such but only 68% have been apparently. Those anti vax demonstrators I've seen don't seem to be poor or even uneducated to me!

Why would lower income people be more vulnerable? because their access to housing, health services and education and the things we take for granted is much less.

[MadAmster]

As I explained in my post that seems to have led to this "underclass" exchange, the areas of the 4 big cities are mainly populated by immigrants, non-Caucasian ones in the main. There are language issues, those with jobs tend to be low paid. The predominant religion is Islam. Many don't see the reports on TV about Covid or read them in the press. The rumours last year of the vaccine having one or more porcine ingredients and/or traces of human foetus have them either ignorant of the vaccine or not trusting it on religious grounds. Pretty much the same as the Caucasian populace of the bible belt. One of the more religious places, the island of Urk, has a 25% vaccine uptake. That might change in the near future. This past week an inhabitant of Urk was released from hospital after 80 days in a coma with Covid. He went in a strong, fit man. He came out in a wheelchair, currently unable to walk. He is expected to recover fully but he's a sad sight compared to the man who went in. Hopefully, he will convince his fellow islanders that getting vaccinated is actually a rather good idea......

[Geoff Parkstone]

I would contend I am probably less benevolent than you, let alone rA!

rA clearly has more first hand experience than I and a more sympathetic attitude, my perspective is probably more informed by press articles on benefit scroungers! But this is backed up by limited personal experience of someone who regularly gets free prescriptions for aspirin etc yet claims not to have been offered vaccination. This coupled with a "well its up to them to invite me, not down to me to go chasing it" attitude. Sadly you cant fix stupid.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I agree there will be a multiple generational lack of role models, probably grandparent to parent to offspring, but where does the failure to be a role model come from? Is it endemic in society where parents no longer care for their children? To what extent is this a failure of the education system, both historically as regards (grand)parents, or more recently as regards the offspring?

I guess the only way to address this issue is to understand how it has arisen - its too easy to blame things like the introduction of the welfare state or rising numbers of single parent families, so what else has caused a couple of generations to absolve responsibility for their kids?

[ramAnag]

I agree there will be a multiple generational lack of role models, probably grandparent to parent to offspring, but where does the failure to be a role model come from? Is it endemic in society where parents no longer care for their children? To what extent is this a failure of the education system, both historically as regards (grand)parents, or more recently as regards the offspring?

I guess the only way to address this issue is to understand how it has arisen - its too easy to blame things like the introduction of the welfare state or rising numbers of single parent families, so what else has caused a couple of generations to absolve responsibility for their kids?

Okay GP...you’re being utterly reasonable, as you used to be, so I’ll respond.

The ‘multiple generational lack of role models’ is spot on and I’ve seen it first hand many times.

Is it endemic in society? In certain sections of society...yes. Just as one imagines that you and I, although far from perfect, were generally unproblematic in our younger years so too, one imagines, were our children.
Likewise, I was at one school for long enough to be teaching the offspring of children I had once taught and, although I know this is an oversimplification, generally speaking (not always) the troublesome six**** year old who had been the product of a violent, dysfunctional upbringing would, twelve or so years later, provide us with a troublesome, violent, dysfunctional addition to the register.

Is education to blame? Certainly back in the mid 20th Century I think it was, as too much depended on the performance of eleven year olds, many children’s futures were determined by the demands of the labour market and there was little in the way of ‘pastoral care’ and absolutely nothing in terms of Child Protection.

Things have changed, to the extent that over the last quarter of a century or so the demands on schools have become arguably too great with all society’s problems...child abuse, bullying, drugs, knife crime, racism, std’s, ****age pregnancy, diversity issues etc etc all becoming the responsibility of schools...but at least the support that was so lacking forty or more years ago is now there.

As regards your last paragraph. It’s not, in my experience, a couple of generations, it’s far more than that, and it is an unfortunate fact that, in the same way as some people aren’t fit to keep a dog, some people are most certainly not fit to have children. Anyone who’s worked in a school in a ‘difficult area’ or been a social worker in such an environment will, I imagine, confirm that, but how you make any sort of proactive legislation to prevent this problem I don’t know...not least because fitness to be a parent is never necessarily determined exclusively by factors such as wealth and intelligence.

So somehow we have to break the cycle which, with your accountants head on, will probably be infuriatingly expensive and non cost effective but, imo, has to happen in the same way as many (that word again) of the same group will have to be ‘spoon fed’ their vaccine. I share your frustration but ultimately it’s for the benefit of us all.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I accept all you say apart from the final paragraph. We have an underclass that offers no value added to society and, it would seem, is self perpetuating generation upon generation meaning that said underclass will continue to offer nothing but rather remain a burden on society, a criminal core and a constant problem to us all.

This is a wider issue than vaccine administration, and prima facie insoluble. Yes we could spoon feed vaccines to this cohort, but I ask myself whether imposing it on a group of people who may be unwilling to cooperate is actually worth while? I hear what you say about "noone is safe until we are all safe" but actually personally I'd be prepared to take the risk rather than waste resource on a sector of society that in many ways society would be glad to be rid of.

I guess thats where we differ - your are empathic I am cynical. If I had a mad dog, Id have it put down - what would you do?

[ramAnag]

I accept all you say apart from the final paragraph. We have an underclass that offers no value added to society and, it would seem, is self perpetuating generation upon generation meaning that said underclass will continue to offer nothing but rather remain a burden on society, a criminal core and a constant problem to us all.

This is a wider issue than vaccine administration, and prima facie insoluble. Yes we could spoon feed vaccines to this cohort, but I ask myself whether imposing it on a group of people who may be unwilling to cooperate is actually worth while? I hear what you say about "noone is safe until we are all safe" but actually personally I'd be prepared to take the risk rather than waste resource on a sector of society that in many ways society would be glad to be rid of.

I guess thats where we differ - your are empathic I am cynical. If I had a mad dog, Id have it put down - what would you do?

As I say...break the cycle, although I have to concede I’m not sure how.

If I had a mad dog I too would have it put down...but extending your analogy...what would you actually do...and how?

P.S. I’m not sure I’m ‘empathic’. There were times when I could have cheerfully connected my fist with one or two parental noses, even more so some of the legal bods prepared to defend them. Not sure you’re being particularly ‘cynical’ either, but we do have a different perspective.

[Geoff Parkstone]

What would I do in order to break the vicious circle surrounding the underclasses and (put simplistically) crime? Well one thing would be to let COVID run its course, but in this sense COVID isn't virulent enough and such people will survive it and we will just see the NHS resource keep getting stretched to bursting point.

Afraid to say I have no solution (Tricky may have a final one!) but post war Britain has failed to find a solution despite the efforts of many many people offering "help". Perhaps tough love is the only answer