O/T - general election 2019

[howdydoo]

I think that is spot on, Frank. Labour is losing moderate MPs and members in favour of the hard left who will toe the Momentum line, whilst the Tories have been stripped of many remainers and soft Brexiteers.

I'm not sure that polarisation of that type is good for anyone.

Not good at all. What's more worrying are the election pacts.

It's simply undemocratic.

Every citizen who is eligible to vote, should have the option to put a cross against a candidate and/or party they want to vote for. If Swinson, Farage etc don't want to put up a candidate, leave the name of their party on the ballot paper.

Shares for workers schemes? What size companies are we talking about Raging?? PLC's only? Extreme?? Tax cuts, No deal. Not sure that compares with your counter 'extremes' to be honest.

[ragingpup]

Not good at all. What's more worrying are the election pacts.

It's simply undemocratic.

Every citizen who is eligible to vote, should have the option to put a cross against a candidate and/or party they want to vote for. If Swinson, Farage etc don't want to put up a candidate, leave the name of their party on the ballot paper.

Shares for workers schemes? What size companies are we talking about Raging?? PLC's only? Extreme?? Tax cuts, No deal. Not sure that compares with your counter 'extremes' to be honest.

Yes, tax cuts for the wealthy are rarely seen as ‘extreme’, but maybe if you look at how we compare with nearby competing countries. Corporation tax: Germany 30%, France 35%, Italy 29%, Netherlands 25%, Portugal 32%, Spain 35%, Norway 23%, Sweden 22%, UK 19% and with further commitments from the Conservatives to cut this further towards the Irish 12.5%. What would you consider to be extreme?

Likewise, Boris pledged to raise the higher tax threshold from 40k to 80k to benefit the wealthiest 10% at a cost to the public of 10 billion. Is that extreme? If not, what does count as extreme in your book re: tax cuts?

No deal? Yes extreme, and hope that Boris steers us clear from this as there is clearly no democratic manadate looking at how the Brexit Party is tailing off and falling behind Johnson’s deal.

Of course I don’t have definitive on this, but as always on MM I think it worthwhile to offer counter arguments to the pro-conservative majority on here, and the way that many Labour policies are very easily branded extremist whilst the Tories get an easy ride. Just challenging is all and no doubt will get pelters for trying to ‘leftie lecture‘ everyone despite being in the minority opinion. Interesting topic.

[howdydoo]

A someone earning £80k a year is not necessarily wealthy.

It might put someone in the top 10% of earners but they are working for it. Might be a bloke bringing up a family of 5 with that. Goes out to work, doing 160 odd hours a month and what do you think he comes out with in net pay? Always Labours problem this. You try and target people who probably deserve that bit more due to their work/profession etc and try and dress it up as though they've literally got £1000's more of disposable wealth in their back pocket.

If you want to really tax the wealthy come up with some new sound bytes. Look at disposal income, property wealth, inheritance tax and all the other areas that smell of filthy rich, rather than come with the same old crap.

People earning the top 10% are not the 10% wealthiest people in our society. Far from it. It's the problem with your politics. You want to dress up everything else as a lie or 'extreme, yet you post garbage like this.

No appetite for competition, wealth creation or fair play. Usual shop steward mentality.

[ragingpup]

A someone earning £80k a year is not necessarily wealthy.

It might put someone in the top 10% of earners but they are working for it. Might be a bloke bringing up a family of 5 with that. Goes out to work, doing 160 odd hours a month and what do you think he comes out with in net pay? Always Labours problem this. You try and target people who probably deserve that bit more due to their work/profession etc and try and dress it up as though they've literally got £1000's more of disposable wealth in their back pocket.

If you want to really tax the wealthy come up with some new sound bytes. Look at disposal income, property wealth, inheritance tax and all the other areas that smell of filthy rich, rather than come with the same old crap.

People earning the top 10% are not the 10% wealthiest people in our society. Far from it. It's the problem with your politics. You want to dress up everything else as a lie or 'extreme, yet you post garbage like this.

No appetite for competition, wealth creation or fair play. Usual shop steward mentality.

You might have missed the post where I said that Labour should avoid ‘wealth bashing’ and that we absolutely should respect the hard work put in by the vast majority of workers, from the richest to those on lowest incomes propped up by the tax payer. People’s hard work isn’t in question: as shank says it’s a question of fairness and how do we go about paying for what we feel we need. I agree with you that any party should look at all ways of doing this and I think Labour for one are exploring variations of the ones you suggest, but all will be branded as ‘extreme’ and ‘wealth bashing’, whichever they choose. In fact they already have for the very measures you suggest. They aren’t “new sound bites”, they are already on the table. We’ll see from the different party’s manifestos what they will focus on. The Conservatives have proposed big spending also – that’s good to hear from someone who wants good financing of essential services, but how do you think they intend topay for this, whilst giving a 10 billion tax break to people in the top 10%?

You raised the question of tax cuts being extreme? I gave you a line of how our corporation tax compares to our competitive rivals and we are EXTREMELY low by comparison. Is that extreme I asked? Why no answer to that? If you can throw easy ‘extreme’ accusations at Labour policies, perhaps I can do likewise and expect at least an attempt at a response? Sorry but it seems that you want to hush up extreme policies when it favours the more well off?

[Redshank]

Yes, tax cuts for the wealthy are rarely seen as ‘extreme’, but maybe if you look at how we compare with nearby competing countries. Corporation tax: Germany 30%, France 35%, Italy 29%, Netherlands 25%, Portugal 32%, Spain 35%, Norway 23%, Sweden 22%, UK 19% and with further commitments from the Conservatives to cut this further towards the Irish 12.5%. What would you consider to be extreme?

Likewise, Boris pledged to raise the higher tax threshold from 40k to 80k to benefit the wealthiest 10% at a cost to the public of 10 billion. Is that extreme? If not, what does count as extreme in your book re: tax cuts?

No deal? Yes extreme, and hope that Boris steers us clear from this as there is clearly no democratic manadate looking at how the Brexit Party is tailing off and falling behind Johnson’s deal.

Of course I don’t have definitive on this, but as always on MM I think it worthwhile to offer counter arguments to the pro-conservative majority on here, and the way that many Labour policies are very easily branded extremist whilst the Tories get an easy ride. Just challenging is all and no doubt will get pelters for trying to ‘leftie lecture‘ everyone despite being in the minority opinion. Interesting topic.

Corporation tax has consistently been around 30% since the late 1980s but since 2010 has been slashed down to 17%, all at a time when the country was having to endure "austerity" as a result of having to bail out the banks. We were all supposedly "tightening our belts". In reality, the poorest in society were having to carry the can with the richest top few percent only increasing their wealth further.

Personally, I find this iniquitous and will vote for the party who will best try to redress the balance. Folk can bang on about "politics of envy" but it's nothing to do with that. It's all about fairness.

[KerrAvon]

Yes, tax cuts for the wealthy are rarely seen as ‘extreme’, but maybe if you look at how we compare with nearby competing countries. Corporation tax: Germany 30%, France 35%, Italy 29%, Netherlands 25%, Portugal 32%, Spain 35%, Norway 23%, Sweden 22%, UK 19% and with further commitments from the Conservatives to cut this further towards the Irish 12.5%. What would you consider to be extreme?

Likewise, Boris pledged to raise the higher tax threshold from 40k to 80k to benefit the wealthiest 10% at a cost to the public of 10 billion. Is that extreme? If not, what does count as extreme in your book re: tax cuts?

No deal? Yes extreme, and hope that Boris steers us clear from this as there is clearly no democratic manadate looking at how the Brexit Party is tailing off and falling behind Johnson’s deal.

Of course I don’t have definitive on this, but as always on MM I think it worthwhile to offer counter arguments to the pro-conservative majority on here, and the way that many Labour policies are very easily branded extremist whilst the Tories get an easy ride. Just challenging is all and no doubt will get pelters for trying to ‘leftie lecture‘ everyone despite being in the minority opinion. Interesting topic.

Corporate tax rates are just one of a range of taxes and expenses that companies operating in the UK face. As Howdy has mentioned, business rate are another form of taxation. In addition land prices, wage rates and energy costs will be different from those in the countries that are competing to host the companies that operate, employ people and pay taxes in the UK.

The point is one of equilibrium; one can assume that the companies who operate, employ and pay taxes in the UK are the ones that consider the conditions in the UK to favour doing so. If you increase corporate tax rates, extend worker’s rights (which, before you go all morally superior, I am not necessary opposed to) and unleash the Trade Unions to cause mayhem of a type last seen in the 80s you shift that equilibrium by making the UK a less desirable place to do so. I assume that you can agree that? If you can’t, perhaps you can explain why?

As for Ireland having a corporate tax rate of just 12.5%, you will recall that I recently posted a link to an article that reported that Ireland had the 4th best standard of living in the world. Your response was that there was nothing within the article that indicated that low tax rates had increased tax revenues (by encouraging companies to choose to pay their taxes there). I found that quite revealing and confirmative of my suspicion that increased taxation rates is an article of faith for the current Labour membership as opposed to a means to an end.


Again, I think the notion that this site has a pro-conservative majority is an example of paranoia. Roly is still reeling over the claim not to be a Socialist that you made last week.

[howdydoo]

It's currently 19%.

Wonder what the comparison with these countries is on Business Rates? Pretty sure UK businesses pay more than German and French companies combined.

[ragingpup]

It's currently 19%.

Wonder what the comparison with these countries is on Business Rates? Pretty sure UK businesses pay more than German and French companies combined.

That's a good point, and one that has to be in mind when setting corporation taxes and ensuring the overall package is fair to business when comparing to international competition.

[frogmiller]

A someone earning £80k a year is not necessarily wealthy.

It might put someone in the top 10% of earners but they are working for it. Might be a bloke bringing up a family of 5 with that. Goes out to work, doing 160 odd hours a month and what do you think he comes out with in net pay? Always Labours problem this. You try and target people who probably deserve that bit more due to their work/profession etc and try and dress it up as though they've literally got £1000's more of disposable wealth in their back pocket.

If you want to really tax the wealthy come up with some new sound bytes. Look at disposal income, property wealth, inheritance tax and all the other areas that smell of filthy rich, rather than come with the same old crap.

People earning the top 10% are not the 10% wealthiest people in our society. Far from it. It's the problem with your politics. You want to dress up everything else as a lie or 'extreme, yet you post garbage like this.

No appetite for competition, wealth creation or fair play. Usual shop steward mentality.

Excellent post

[wendun]

The Uriah Heep of MM. Insincere, ingratiating, patronising, prolix beyond tedium and endless cut and paste.