O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Andy_Faber]

Second time today you’ve referred to ‘rA’s underclasses’, GP. I merely pointed out, a while ago, that there is an ‘underclass’ and that they represent a group of people who may be ‘difficult to reach’ as far as vaccination is concerned.

you'll just keep stirring up argument with both those catchphrases rA, both Underclass and Difficult to reach are so nebulous as to be meaningless

[ramAnag]

you'll just keep stirring up argument with both those catchphrases rA, both Underclass and Difficult to reach are so nebulous as to be meaningless

Only to you, and the mischief maker in chief. Most on here know exactly what I mean. What would you call and describe them as...or do you just want to deny their existence?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Only to you, and the mischief maker in chief. Most on here know exactly what I mean. What would you call and describe them as...or do you just want to deny their existence?

Hmmmm..... there are 6 people who generally engage in debate on this thread. You, as the user of the phrase don't count as regards understanding it. That leaves 5. By definition Andy and I don't know "exactly what you mean", condemned from your own voice. That leaves 3. Swale, see above has his own perspective on the term. That leaves TTR and MA. Now lets say that they both entirely understand what you mean by the use of this perjorative term.

That would make 2 understanding and 2 not. As noted before, maths is not your greatest strength, but 2 out of 6 no more constitutes "most" than the 2 out of 6 that you've dismissed above as not understanding???

[swaledale]

you'll just keep stirring up argument with both those catchphrases rA, both Underclass and Difficult to reach are so nebulous as to be meaningless

Thats a rather sweeping statement and reveals your lack of understanding as to social issues There is certainly an underclass in this country, indeed I suspect in any country, but I'll stick to the Uk as thats my experience.

By and large these are people who are economically and socially disadvantaged, depending upon ones point of view and indeed political leaning, their situation is either due to economic factors or behavioural factors. The Tories liked to call them "troubled families", I suspect its a bit of both, but if one is born into a family that is economically disadvantaged then the perpetuation of a lifestyle isn't unexpected.

Its very easy from a position of relative economic security such as you and I enjoy to assume that everyone has the same life chances, but that is actually not the case, if there is one thing that Covid has revealed is the stark inequality in access to education, health care, housing and jobs etc that exists and its not solely due to people's life choices.

I do remember your exclamation of disbelief when I mentioned the difficult to reach regarding vaccination. They exist, believe it or not there is a significant proportion of the population who for many reasons do not engage with what we would term mainstream society - these reasons include language, cultural, distrust of authority, poverty, lack of education, environment and so on.

I'm not entering into a debate as to why they are hard to reach, except to say that its not just immigrant communities, there are many examples of white (mainly poor) white communities which are equally hard to reach. I'm just saying they exist and in a crisis such as a pandemic, it is foolish to pretend they don't.

[Andy_Faber]

Thats a rather sweeping statement and reveals your lack of understanding as to social issues There is certainly an underclass in this country, indeed I suspect in any country, but I'll stick to the Uk as thats my experience.

By and large these are people who are economically and socially disadvantaged, depending upon ones point of view and indeed political leaning, their situation is either due to economic factors or behavioural factors. The Tories liked to call them "troubled families", I suspect its a bit of both, but if one is born into a family that is economically disadvantaged then the perpetuation of a lifestyle isn't unexpected.

Its very easy from a position of relative economic security such as you and I enjoy to assume that everyone has the same life chances, but that is actually not the case, if there is one thing that Covid has revealed is the stark inequality in access to education, health care, housing and jobs etc that exists and its not solely due to people's life choices.

I do remember your exclamation of disbelief when I mentioned the difficult to reach regarding vaccination. They exist, believe it or not there is a significant proportion of the population who for many reasons do not engage with what we would term mainstream society - these reasons include language, cultural, distrust of authority, poverty, lack of education, environment and so on.

I'm not entering into a debate as to why they are hard to reach, except to say that its not just immigrant communities, there are many examples of white (mainly poor) white communities which are equally hard to reach. I'm just saying they exist and in a crisis such as a pandemic, it is foolish to pretend they don't.

I'll accept most of that, maybe my issue is the overuse of both phrases as a coverall for those who fail/choose not to comply. You're right that we 'fat and happy' can't necessarily conceive the difficulties/issues, but many of those within the categories you list somehow aren't that difficult to reach whan it comes to working the benefits system.

To be inclusive on my criticism I'll actually call fire on a category I AM part of (but you didn't list), 'religious' communities. Anyone finding excuse in the words of the religion I follow to avoid vaccination need a straightener IMO, and there are some round the edges. Looking more widely, and its only an anecdote, on (of all things) ITV's Loose women last week, one of the panellists, an uncommitted Muslim, not only said she would have taken the vaccine even if it had included pork products, but her devout mother would have as well, believing (I paraphrase) thather God would accept she would be better alive than dead. Fair play to them

[Geoff Parkstone]

Maths as we agree not your strong suit rA. I make it once today.... Still I like your logic, Australia must be 15-6 using it

[ramAnag]

Maths as we agree not your strong suit rA. I make it once today.... Still I like your logic, Australia must be 15-6 using it

My apologies...the second time since 10.04 yesterday. Either way they’re not my favourites and nor do I feel any possessiveness towards them.

[Geoff Parkstone]

and, for what its worth, smokers and anti vaxxers still get treated in NHS hospitals at our expense!! Of course smokers have heavily contributed to the cost of the NHS (in addition to normal IT and NI) via tobacco tax, what have non or anti vaxxxers done ?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Hey, Ive not been disagreeing with your point about the state being able to tell us what to do and what not to. As you say there are many many examples, and many people undergoing custodial sentences by virtue of non compliance. There are rules/laws to govern your behaviour, and there are consequences for non compliance.

In your case, your pothead status may have jeopardised your career, but you took the risk..... in your second example of the 140mph car (I don't understand the complexities thereof) you would jeopardise your own life, but also that of many others with non compliance - in fact jeopardise those lives even at 50mph if driven like a ****. Oh and of course contribute towards the destruction of the planet.

Where is this debate going? I have no clue - at best it would seem that we are discussing different consequences for different breaches of the rules? For smoking in a pub, you get thrown out; for speeding in your car there are a whole range of penalties; for breaking the covax rules you lose your job, but only in certain roles; for Brexit, waiting in queues. You choose your course, and there are differing consequences. I dont actually know what TTR is bellyaching about, save that perhaps the consequences of different actions are different, and perhaps in the example of losing your job as a no vaxxer, unreasonable?

[ramAnag]

Okay...moving on.
I’m a little in limbo at the moment for reasons that may become apparent but two recent events have provided food for thought.

A week or so ago I was talking to a much younger friend of mine who is a selected ‘first responder’. He was recently called to an elderly lady in her nineties who had hurt herself as a result of a fall in her bathroom in a Derbyshire village about five miles from Derby. He rang for an ambulance and was informed that the waiting time would be ‘up to nine hours’!

Last night I had the misfortune to have to use the German emergency services for someone very close to me. The ambulance arrived within ten minutes. Initial diagnosis was made and the person concerned was in hospital and being treated within another half hour.
Fortunately the relevant EHIC does not expire till early 2023 and, despite us having left the EU, there was no reluctance on the part of the Germans to accept it.

It honestly gives me no pleasure to say this and I know it’s more about the NHS than Covid itself, but...compare and contrast. Is this the state of Brirain today and a reflection of how far we have fallen in recent years?