Transfer Window Loan Signings Takeover and random thoughts

[Kal]

Since when has Ashley shown any genuine interest in selling ?
This policy is just a money grab to finance his other ventures.
If we do go down he will chuck £80m + at the team to return immediately .. It's a no lose strategy .. Except for the fans .

No lose strategy if there is an immediate return to the prem. Appoint the wrong manager and that is put into doubt, no matter how much money is spent (villa)

His gambling might bite him on the @rse next time.

[Geordie1974]

Considering it was Rafa that apparently came to Newcastle to put his CV in rather than Newcastle hunting him down, I'd say that him leaving may not be set in stone.

Really.You need to have a word with your lad.The other troll that thinks all of us on here are too thick to see what you try and do.
He has stated many a time that Ashley went and got Rafa.Now you are saying it was the other way round.
All these protests around Ashley,why don't you and the other troll start a counter protest group.

[Kal]

why don't you and the other troll start a counter protest group.

He's been doing that on here (protesting for Ashley) since he joined in 2008.

[Zippity]

His gambling might bite him on the @rse next time.

It might be the only way to get rid of him.

[HughieG]

This is the problem though. If the signings do well then it is a shrewd move by Rafa but if they fail to do well it will be because Rafa had them forced on him and his first, second, third choices were scuppered.

That's fine if people want to think like this but all it does is gives Rafa every avenue to escape any potential criticism, whilst any of it can be channeled to the obvious perceived villains.

Two scenarios:
If Ashley gives Rafa 1mil to buy a defender and Rafa gets one and he turns out to be rubbish, whose fault is it?
If Ashley gives Rafa 1mil to buy a defender and Rafa gets one and he turns out to be fantastic, whose credit is that?

Either way, Ashley is not backing Rafa properly, and Rafa is forced to do the honourable job of putting low-priced defenders into shape and making them perform. It's not so strange that he's not able to do this with all these purchases. I wonder why you can't see that.

[ghostrider]

Two scenarios:
If Ashley gives Rafa 1mil to buy a defender and Rafa gets one and he turns out to be rubbish, whose fault is it?

Rafa's for not identifying the quality/potential.

I'd answer it differently if you actually made your stance more clear, as in, If Rafa asked for 10 million for a defender and Ashley handed him 1 million to just get a defender then wholeheartedly it would be Ashley's fault.

If Ashley gives Rafa 1mil to buy a defender and Rafa gets one and he turns out to be fantastic, whose credit is that?

Massive credit to Rafa for choosing well and identifying the quality as well as bringing it out.
However the same thing applies with Ashley. If Rafa only asked for the 1 million to get a defender then Ashley has to take some credit for handing him what he asked for.

But as you know, Ashley allowed Lascelles to be bought for 3 million. He's now worth a minimum of 10 times that as it stands because he's turned out to be a good defender and seems to get better.
The question is, does Ashley get credit for it or is he simply billed as a skinflint who got lucky?

There's many ways this can be twisted and turned by any and all.

Rafa takes the credit where it's clearly due but in my book Ashley and co have to take credit for not being nuts in paying the sick fees that's being paid out.
That's my stance and you're quite welcome to yours, as are others.

Is Ashley greedy?.....yes. Is he shrewd?.....yes. Is he looking after himself?.....yes. Is he ensuring this club runs efficiently?.....yes. Is he ensuring this club can fight to get into a champions league place or better?....Absolutely not.
Is he hoping Newcastle United can slide into those positions based on a economy type budget?....My guess is, yes. Is it ideal?....of course not, but then we all need a massive reality check before we get swallowed up in this silly money game that's being played on us all.

The sooner fans understand that we are an also-ran club like the rest outside of the elite and that the days of the sleeping giant club being awakened for the slumber by a couple of local businessmen with a fan mentality of putting the club into a fairytale land, the sooner it'll become clear that the so called ambitious triers are seen as no further forward than ourselves.

The days of the Hobbyist owners are done with. The fad is over with and now it's all about the big TV companies handing out the sweeties of addiction then forcing the smaller clubs to gamble all their chip whilst the elite clubs cash in theirs.

Ashley's no idiot but he was once extremely naive in a footballing sense.
Now I believe he sees the downfall of going gungho by watching the other clubs doing it.

The key to doing well without playing massive money merry-go-rounds, elite like is to identify the next best quality and pit those against the next best outside of those elite.
We are one of those, as are many many other and that's who we're really playing against.

Either way, Ashley is not backing Rafa properly, and Rafa is forced to do the honourable job of putting low-priced defenders into shape and making them perform.

He's not forced, he chose the job and knew what he was working with. By all means argue different but that's my stance.
As for low priced. You make your own superstars if your coaching and managing are up to standard and your scouts identify the potential in those low priced individuals.
Off the peg expensive so called superstars do not guarantee you anything, unless you can buy in so many of them as to be able to mix and match without suffering the consequences.
Very few clubs are capable of doing that.

It's not so strange that he's not able to do this with all these purchases. I wonder why you can't see that.

I can see it all. I can see perfectly well that we could be better...but then again that applies to every club and every minute of my football supporting life from Newcastle United's perspective.

I want better. I want more entertainment with better quality.
I'd much rather we built it in the main rather than simply buy expensive chancers in bulk.

[HughieG]

Rafa's for not identifying the quality/potential.

I'd answer it differently if you actually made your stance more clear, as in, If Rafa asked for 10 million for a defender and Ashley handed him 1 million to just get a defender then wholeheartedly it would be Ashley's fault.

Massive credit to Rafa for choosing well and identifying the quality as well as bringing it out.
However the same thing applies with Ashley. If Rafa only asked for the 1 million to get a defender then Ashley has to take some credit for handing him what he asked for.

But as you know, Ashley allowed Lascelles to be bought for 3 million. He's now worth a minimum of 10 times that as it stands because he's turned out to be a good defender and seems to get better.
The question is, does Ashley get credit for it or is he simply billed as a skinflint who got lucky?

There's many ways this can be twisted and turned by any and all.

Rafa takes the credit where it's clearly due but in my book Ashley and co have to take credit for not being nuts in paying the sick fees that's being paid out.
That's my stance and you're quite welcome to yours, as are others.

Is Ashley greedy?.....yes. Is he shrewd?.....yes. Is he looking after himself?.....yes. Is he ensuring this club runs efficiently?.....yes. Is he ensuring this club can fight to get into a champions league place or better?....Absolutely not.
Is he hoping Newcastle United can slide into those positions based on a economy type budget?....My guess is, yes. Is it ideal?....of course not, but then we all need a massive reality check before we get swallowed up in this silly money game that's being played on us all.

The sooner fans understand that we are an also-ran club like the rest outside of the elite and that the days of the sleeping giant club being awakened for the slumber by a couple of local businessmen with a fan mentality of putting the club into a fairytale land, the sooner it'll become clear that the so called ambitious triers are seen as no further forward than ourselves.

The days of the Hobbyist owners are done with. The fad is over with and now it's all about the big TV companies handing out the sweeties of addiction then forcing the smaller clubs to gamble all their chip whilst the elite clubs cash in theirs.

Ashley's no idiot but he was once extremely naive in a footballing sense.
Now I believe he sees the downfall of going gungho by watching the other clubs doing it.

The key to doing well without playing massive money merry-go-rounds, elite like is to identify the next best quality and pit those against the next best outside of those elite.
We are one of those, as are many many other and that's who we're really playing against.




He's not forced, he chose the job and knew what he was working with. By all means argue different but that's my stance.
As for low priced. You make your own superstars if your coaching and managing are up to standard and your scouts identify the potential in those low priced individuals.
Off the peg expensive so called superstars do not guarantee you anything, unless you can buy in so many of them as to be able to mix and match without suffering the consequences.
Very few clubs are capable of doing that.


I can see it all. I can see perfectly well that we could be better...but then again that applies to every club and every minute of my football supporting life from Newcastle United's perspective.

I want better. I want more entertainment with better quality.
I'd much rather we built it in the main rather than simply buy expensive chancers in bulk.

We're not building in the main though. We have a "main" but it's not being built on because that would be too expensive. I don't think Rafa knew what he said yes to, his public dissatisfaction (and class) truly shows that this was not what he was guaranteed.

Also, the scenarios was not Rafa asking for 1mil (because no manager would ask for that amount), it's Ashley saying that it's all he can have. If Rafa had had 20 mil for a striker, I doubt we would've gotten Muto. But that's what he could get, so he bought him. If Muto is a success I'd say that's a hell of scouting job by Rafa. If not, I'd say it was a bad buy, also from Rafa, but mostly from Ashley for not realising what the market is like at the moment and properly backing Rafa to improve on the squad.

[ghostrider]

We're not building in the main though. We have a "main" but it's not being built on because that would be too expensive. I don't think Rafa knew what he said yes to, his public dissatisfaction (and class) truly shows that this was not what he was guaranteed.

I think Rafa knew fine well what he said yes to.
When he first came he basically signed on for the season to see if he could get us to stay in the premier league.
I would assume that a set wage was offered plus (potentially) a bonus for staying up. (speculation I might add)

However, Rafa was then offered a contract to take on the club after he failed to keep them up (not entirely his fault in the main, obviously).
He went away and mulled over the contract with his lawyer. He took weeks to come to a decision to sign a 3 year deal.
He must have known what the contract offered and he must have known what his own side of the deal was.

He's whined about not having what he wanted. Not being ideal. He's done this at many other clubs he's been at so it's nothing new.
Is he right to whine?
In a way he can bemoan what he has but leave it to the boardroom or in-house...not divulging it to the media and also playing cryptic type clues for people to decipher as to what's apparently on his mind, then come out with opposites to what some are deciding to think on.

He says he's happy with his players he brought in.
If Rafa's a man of integrity and honesty and those players are bought against his will then I'm sure he would have written that into his initial contract to have control over his own buys, even if there's a set amount allocated.
And if that was breached I'm sure the man could walk away and would do whilst having his contract fully paid up.

He hasn't done any of this so something must be legitimate in the contract he agreed to.
The fact that he's not signed an extension may be his way of saying many things. A bluff, maybe. A statement of intent to leave...maybe. A wait and see how the season goes...maybe.
Anyway you get my drift.

Also, the scenarios was not Rafa asking for 1mil (because no manager would ask for that amount), it's Ashley saying that it's all he can have.

Well that depends on the circumstances...especially now, which we've covered.

If Rafa had had 20 mil for a striker, I doubt we would've gotten Muto. But that's what he could get, so he bought him. If Muto is a success I'd say that's a hell of scouting job by Rafa. If not, I'd say it was a bad buy, also from Rafa, but mostly from Ashley for not realising what the market is like at the moment and properly backing Rafa to improve on the squad.

But Rafa had a £27 million striker on the books.
None of us knew that but Fulham seem to have seen a worth in it. Whether it's a right buy or a wrong one for that amount remains to be seen in terms of their budget.
The point being, we had one but he was deemed not good enough or whatever for Rafa.

So we have Muto but we potentially could have had Jorgensen who was 20 million in January and now they can't offload for anywhere near that price, it seems.
Muto or Jorgensen?
Different players but still.

The issue is, what players are out there for 20 million and are they better than what we have?
Jorgensen or Rondon?

What about Ings on loan or Rondon?
Rondon's a loan but we lose a loan to gain a loan.
Gayle or Rondon?

Lots of things to think about and the same goes for other players.
How many would have Slimani on a permanent for 25 million or Ings for similar?

It's easy to say " yeah that's the ambition we need."
But do any of them guarantee any more than what we've got in the armoury as it stands?

Back to the 1 million player or the 20 million. There's no guarantees...only better odds.

To play the elites we have to spend like them....net..and likely play for among them for 5 minutes before we fall by the wayside.
We then get robbed because of our need to sell due to real struggle and we recoup half or less of the value.
Not to mention players turning mercenary or creating issues when the big boys come sniffing to unsettle them.

This happens whilst the elite play the merry-go round of money by making it appear they buy heavy but reality shows they sell equally heavy.
It's not by accident, it's by design in my opinion....but like I've said...each to their own.

[Sclox]

I have no problem with frugal business by Ashley. Absolutely not. But there has to be a plan, a strategy - is the money made on frugal player purchase sales being reinvested or put into a big war chest for the future? No its not, it vanishes. Also speculating to accumulate could reap even higher rewards which he won't do- I can think of many that slipped the net because he wouldn't pay above his ceiling and went on to better things.

If Rafa gets his 3rd or 4th choice signing and its a success, then why shouldn't he take credit? If not a success then why shouldn't Ashley get the blame for forcing him to go further down the list? Your arguement makes no sense they are 3rd or 4th choice for a reason.

The policy of buying to sell higher will never allow us to have a settled team to allow us to compete for a trophy. We are constantly rebuilding year after year and either stay still or go backwards, this would be fine if money was reinvested, but again, it vanishes.

I think Rafa was told something completely different when he first came. You remember the phrase "every penny the club generates" ? Its fair to say he was probably misled or at worst lied to by the proven in court liar and I have never heard Rafa "whine" as you put it. He points out his position when asked.

As usual knobhead you say a lot but in reality you really say fk all.

Whats wrong, why are you back? Sick of being doggied by the guys on the mag?

[pboromag]

we are massivly in debt to an owner who doesnt have his heart in the club

and hasnt for many years
yet he pays rafa

i would suggest the club will have to be self funding
and just because on paper it looks like you have made a profit
tthere are many many other amounts of expenditure

you cant even buy from ebay without paying fees

and how much did we pay to agents or players to gett them of the books ??

people dodge this question

and also the amount we will have to pay for under 23 players etc

they dont play for the fun of it
and they certainly dont pay their own air fares accomaodation etc etc etc etc