O/T:- Palestine / Israel

[SmiffyPie]

The world and Notts MAD argue about semantics while the harsh reality is enacted out costing hundreds of innocent lives. Hamas are evil and represent Iran fighting a proxy war to get rid of the state of Israel. To celebrate their actions is beyond any understanding and not something a true Palestinian supporter would do.
However, the world should not be blind to Netanyahu who is snaring Gazans by closing borders then sending in the military with its full firepower. For years now, this man and the Likud Party have been denying Palestinians the self-determination Israel signed up to in the Oslo Accord. Of all the nations to deny compassion and understanding to the dispossessed, the Jewish is the most shocking after their experiences in the Second World War.

Agree completely however, like the innocent Palestinians there are many innocent Jewish people. Both are caught between the rock of hatred and the hard place of extremism.

[keldsyke]

The Home Secretary was keen on free speech a few months ago;

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2299495.html

Not so much now.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ys-rishi-sunak

It’s almost as if the government and their allies only want free speech when it suits them.

The situation in Israel/Palestine is horrendous, as much as this country is ‘fecked’ I don’t know how this makes it more so.

Again predictably you turn it to your bias, the thread is about the scum on the streets who don’t value life not the Home Secretary.

[BigFatPie]

Again predictably you turn it to your bias, the thread is about the scum on the streets who don’t value life not the Home Secretary.

Apologies, you brought up free speech in your original post, I wasn’t aware you didn’t want anyone else to talk about it.

[Newish Pie]

Hearing and seeing some horrendous things in this country about those killed, there’s free speech, but the country is becoming feral, it seems some can say and do what they want without any repercussions. Society is fecked, how do you bring it back?

I dunno, I think it's easy to be too pessimistic. I suspect there's only a small number of hyper-partisans (plus bots and trolls and attention-seekers and stirrers trying to spread disinformation for fun or political ends) saying the really awful things. All this on social media platforms which were never effectively moderated or regulated to start with and even less effectively now.

I think most real people's real opinions are pretty similar and pretty nuanced. There are - of course - people with sympathies more on one side than the other, but most comments and statements I've read are calling for pretty much the same things, though with a difference of emphasis. Even those whose sympathies are more with one side than another don't typically hate/say horrendous things/glory in violence and destruction.

[slack_pie]

I dunno, I think it's easy to be too pessimistic. I suspect there's only a small number of hyper-partisans (plus bots and trolls and attention-seekers and stirrers trying to spread disinformation for fun or political ends) saying the really awful things. All this on social media platforms which were never effectively moderated or regulated to start with and even less effectively now.

I think most real people's real opinions are pretty similar and pretty nuanced. There are - of course - people with sympathies more on one side than the other, but most comments and statements I've read are calling for pretty much the same things, though with a difference of emphasis. Even those whose sympathies are more with one side than another don't typically hate/say horrendous things/glory in violence and destruction.

From what I can see on social media, people are so quick to take sides. Do you stand with Israel or Palestine? It's the same with every major issue these days - people take a side and then treat it like a sport. In reality, this conflict - like all the other serious issues the world is facing - is more nuanced and complicated than that. Taking a side is a strange thing to do when there are innocent children being needlessly slaughtered on both sides of the divide.

I can't see how this situation can be resolved. I presume Israel's plan is to destroy Hamas root and branch, which probably means turning Gaza into a wasteland. But in the process, they'll create a new generation of Palestinians (and Muslims in general) who want nothing but revenge and suffering for Israelis. And on and on it goes. That's if one of Palestine's many powerful allies doesn't weigh in and start WWIII.

There's something seriously wrong with us humans.

[Newish Pie]

From what I can see on social media, people are so quick to take sides. Do you stand with Israel or Palestine? It's the same with every major issue these days - people take a side and then treat it like a sport. In reality, this conflict - like all the other serious issues the world is facing - is more nuanced and complicated than that. Taking a side is a strange thing to do when there are innocent children being needlessly slaughtered on both sides of the divide.

I can't see how this situation can be resolved. I presume Israel's plan is to destroy Hamas root and branch, which probably means turning Gaza into a wasteland. But in the process, they'll create a new generation of Palestinians (and Muslims in general) who want nothing but revenge and suffering for Israelis. And on and on it goes. That's if one of Palestine's many powerful allies doesn't weigh in and start WWIII.

There's something seriously wrong with us humans.

Good post - I agree with almost all of that. I guess the bit I'd stress is the "on social media" bit. It's really a small minority on social media, which in turn is a minority. A lot of performative noise, a lot of it done for attention.

Absolutely agree about the "stand with" nonsense that's sprung up. I think initially it was a quite positive way of showing solidarity with victims or people suffering where it was relatively uncontroversial, and now, as you say, it's become picking a side. One of the nice things about sport is that we can pick a side (or rather, a side picks us) and indulge our tribalism in a relatively harmless manner. But this isn't harmless.

Jampie's excellent post (12) sums up really nicely why this isn't the simple case of goodies and baddies.

I think a solution is possible. I think a lot of people would have said that Northern Ireland was similarly irresolvable, and although it's not been resolved, at least the killings have all but stopped. But this took a lot of brave people to take first steps, and then it took a new generation to emerge who'd only known peace. Think if there is a solution, it's going to take multiple generations.

[slack_pie]

Good post - I agree with almost all of that. I guess the bit I'd stress is the "on social media" bit. It's really a small minority on social media, which in turn is a minority. A lot of performative noise, a lot of it done for attention.

Absolutely agree about the "stand with" nonsense that's sprung up. I think initially it was a quite positive way of showing solidarity with victims or people suffering where it was relatively uncontroversial, and now, as you say, it's become picking a side. One of the nice things about sport is that we can pick a side (or rather, a side picks us) and indulge our tribalism in a relatively harmless manner. But this isn't harmless.

Jampie's excellent post (12) sums up really nicely why this isn't the simple case of goodies and baddies.

I think a solution is possible. I think a lot of people would have said that Northern Ireland was similarly irresolvable, and although it's not been resolved, at least the killings have all but stopped. But this took a lot of brave people to take first steps, and then it took a new generation to emerge who'd only known peace. Think if there is a solution, it's going to take multiple generations.

Yeah, I totally agree with what Jampie said too. Both sides have reasons to be angry and vengeful. Both sides have done awful things that they should be condemned for.

It blows my mind that some people only see the bad stuff that one side did and are blind to the atrocities that the other side is responsible for. I'd be angry if I were an Israeli. I'd be angry if I were a Palestinian. How do you resolve a situation like that?

[Magpies1959]

Newish Pie, it is ok to say that only Hamas supporters are celebrating the atrocities in Israel. BFP, a simple question, do you think it is ok for Hamas supporters to be celebrating their actions in Israel, on the streets of our capital. If not, then your earlier post is just purely political provocation.

[Newish Pie]

Newish Pie, it is ok to say that only Hamas supporters are celebrating the atrocities in Israel. BFP, a simple question, do you think it is ok for Hamas supporters to be celebrating their actions in Israel, on the streets of our capital. If not, then your earlier post is just purely political provocation.

I don't really understand what you're asking, why you're asking it, or why you're asking me.

[BigFatPie]

Newish Pie, it is ok to say that only Hamas supporters are celebrating the atrocities in Israel. BFP, a simple question, do you think it is ok for Hamas supporters to be celebrating their actions in Israel, on the streets of our capital. If not, then your earlier post is just purely political provocation.

I’ll do you the courtesy of answering your even though you rarely if ever answer any of mine. Of course it isn’t ok for anyone to celebrate atrocities. On the other hand, is it not ok for people to demonstrate support for innocent Palestinians by waving Palestinian flags because Braverman obviously doesn’t despite hectoring the police about ‘free speech’ just 6 months ago.

On the wider issue I don’t know why the US and UK governments and others give Israel carte blanche to bomb and starve out Palestinian children. Hamas are terrorists but they are not Palestine anymore than a despicable person like Netanyahu is Israel.