Charlie Kirk has been shot and as sadley died

[baggiematt]

Bit harsh Matt as he was allowed to say what he thought. Many wouldn?t disagree with his comments about the U.K. below. When I was touring California this Summer professional people were saying the same ie what?s gone wrong with thousands of young male illegals arriving daily and being put up in hotels!

Kirk described the UK as a ?totalitarian third world hellhole?, adding: ?It?s tragic. I don?t say that with glib, I don?t say that with delight. It is sad. It?s chilling and it?s depressing.?

He claimed he had seen a cafe in which ?every single table was taken by a Mohammedan and a fully burqa-wearing woman ? not a single native Brit? and that people were being arrested for online posts that displayed no apparent harmful intent.

?They invented free speech,? he said. ?Now there?s so much wrong with that country and it is not worthy of making fun of. I mean, you can have some laughs and some comedy, but it is depressing. It is dark.?

Im not sure what Ive said thats harsh. He was a controversial social commentator and that comes with risk that someone will want to end you as a result. Its reality because its whats happened.

What I would say is that he was a very respectful and articulate debater and I think it would have been great if he put those skills to good rather than being so divisive.

But being divisive makes you rich. For example, the founder of GB News business partner was the founder of Antifa. They know exactly what theyre doing. I dont actually believe that Kirk believed all the crap he came out with.

[baggieal]

Im not sure what Ive said thats harsh. He was a controversial social commentator and that comes with risk that someone will want to end you as a result. Its reality because its whats happened.

What I would say is that he was a very respectful and articulate debater and I think it would have been great if he put those skills to good rather than being so divisive.

But being divisive makes you rich. For example, the founder of GB News business partner was the founder of Antifa. They know exactly what theyre doing. I dont actually believe that Kirk believed all the crap he came out with.

People will always have differing views - even in your own household. I thought what he said about the U.K. though was bang on - it?s becoming a s hit hole run by clowns. I wish our homeless had the same priority of all those illegals. Even many do gooders agree on that one.

[Omegstrat6]

That Kirk was assassinated for his expressing his beliefs and opinions is truly appalling but please let's not buy into Trump's eulogy of him as some kind of great American martyr. Sure, he wasn't wrong about everything but then no-one is and, despite all the "Jesus is King" BS he liked to spout like some kind of latter day Billy Graham, his views didn't seem terribly Christian to me and he spread and incited a lot of hatred.

At heart, Kirk was a bigot, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic and racist. Until he realised that it didn't play too well with Trump's political ambitions, he was also pretty anti-Semitic. Ingratiating himself with Ivanka, his skill at using social media to spread the MAGA message to young people made him very useful to Trump and this, in turn, also made him very rich.

To claim, however, that Kirk was some great defender of freedom and free speech is almost laughable. Trump and the MAGA leadership consistently accuse the UK of allowing wokeness to erode our free speech and it is undeniable that a lack of clarity in some of our laws coupled with overly self-entitled and vocal minority groups have enabled a degree of cancel culture -but the irony is that Trump is doing far worse in the USA.

This is a POTUS who hates criticism so much that he actively seeks to remove and replace individuals in the military, the judiciary and within government who might disagree with him and who doubles down on any media he doesn't like ( "fake news"). This is about control and that inevitably means censorship. MAGA aren't interested in debate. Why should they be? Outright lies, wild conspiracy theories (Q-anon/ Pizzagate) and mis-information are so much more fun- and tell them often enough and loud enough and there are plenty of people who will fall for it. Kirk was fully part of this.

He was apparently well read and a skilled debater but, given some of his entrenched views, I wonder how well Kirk might have done against a Hitchens or an O'Brien in a public debate.

I personally believe that Hate speech should have consequences but those consequences certainly should not be to be gunned down and those that celebrate his killing are as sick as some of the beliefs they protest against.

[baggiematt]

That Kirk was assassinated for his expressing his beliefs and opinions is truly appalling but please let's not buy into Trump's eulogy of him as some kind of great American martyr. Sure, he wasn't wrong about everything but then no-one is and, despite all the "Jesus is King" BS he liked to spout like some kind of latter day Billy Graham, his views didn't seem terribly Christian to me and he spread and incited a lot of hatred.

At heart, Kirk was a bigot, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic and racist. Until he realised that it didn't play too well with Trump's political ambitions, he was also pretty anti-Semitic. Ingratiating himself with Ivanka, his skill at using social media to spread the MAGA message to young people made him very useful to Trump and this, in turn, also made him very rich.

To claim, however, that Kirk was some great defender of freedom and free speech is almost laughable. Trump and the MAGA leadership consistently accuse the UK of allowing wokeness to erode our free speech and it is undeniable that a lack of clarity in some of our laws coupled with overly self-entitled and vocal minority groups have enabled a degree of cancel culture -but the irony is that Trump is doing far worse in the USA.

This is a POTUS who hates criticism so much that he actively seeks to remove and replace individuals in the military, the judiciary and within government who might disagree with him and who doubles down on any media he doesn't like ( "fake news"). This is about control and that inevitably means censorship. MAGA aren't interested in debate. Why should they be? Outright lies, wild conspiracy theories (Q-anon/ Pizzagate) and mis-information are so much more fun- and tell them often enough and loud enough and there are plenty of people who will fall for it. Kirk was fully part of this.

He was apparently well read and a skilled debater but, given some of his entrenched views, I wonder how well Kirk might have done against a Hitchens or an O'Brien in a public debate.

I personally believe that Hate speech should have consequences but those consequences certainly should not be to be gunned down and those that celebrate his killing are as sick as some of the beliefs they protest against.

Really well reasoned post. There are a lot of conmen in the western world at the moment, being led by the master conman Trump. All to change the narrative culturally around what the problems are, why they are caused and create victimhood.

The biggest difference now is that they are not only infiltrating platforms, they own them! They control a lot of what you see and dont see in the world.

Its not too dissimilar to what the moustache man did in Germany. Just different victims, different platforms and different fools to follow their narrative.

[baggieal]

The views of individuals should be welcome if they are not violent.

This person should be sacked immediately!

The president-elect of the Oxford Union has come under fire for appearing to celebrate the assassination of the American conservative activist Charlie Kirk.

George Abaraonye appeared to send a celebratory message to a WhatsApp group chat after the news emerged that Mr Kirk had been shot during an event at Utah Valley University.

Those views or protesters with placards saying refugees welcome - again that?s their views but they don?t offer solutions of who?s paying for it. Are these people setting up direct debits from their salaries to fund this if they feel that strongly? Did Gary Linekar donate large sums of his wealth?

I think Starmer is one of the worst PM?s in history but again nothing should ever turn violent. He won?t in a million years last longer than the next three years so that?s life. Good job I have never voted as they are all in it for their own gains.

[Q165]

A violent killing such as this is desperately sad and wholly inexcusable. But what also sickens me is Donald Trump. I despise him. I believe that his words at this time are a total front. He doesn’t care about Kirk. He cares about nobody and nothing but himself. At this moment he is alarmed by other events that are taking place and how they might impact upon him. I listen to the things being said at his ‘press conferences’ (they are no such thing) and it is clear that as much diversion as possible is trying to be created and is his strategy. He is a very worried man but for him this is one really massive diversion. I bet he can’t believe his good fortune.

[Albionic68]

Absolute madness. It just shows you how divisive politics is right now........

'What kind of an American are you?'

[baggieal]

A violent killing such as this is desperately sad and wholly inexcusable. But what also sickens me is Donald Trump. I despise him. I believe that his words at this time are a total front. He doesn’t care about Kirk. He cares about nobody and nothing but himself. At this moment he is alarmed by other events that are taking place and how they might impact upon him. I listen to the things being said at his ‘press conferences’ (they are no such thing) and it is clear that as much diversion as possible is trying to be created and is his strategy. He is a very worried man but for him this is one really massive diversion. I bet he can’t believe his good fortune.

Maybe so but if there was another ejection now in the USA - I would bet Trump would get in. He?s almost sorted illegal immigration out and for the first time he?s given Ukraine permission to buy and fire long range missiles. Sleepy Joe did not.

So on the basic above - if there was another election would Labour get back in? Absolutely no chance!

We need to start looking at home before we criticise someone else?s leader rightly or wrongly! Starmer is a complete and utter disgrace so that?s perhaps the starting point.

[soulman101]

The President elect of the Oxford union has been tweeting and sharing celebrating Charlie Kirk death .
Even if he disagreed with Charlie ,his wife and 2 young children are in shock and morning ,how can people sink so low .

[Omegstrat6]

I think that what is happening in the US both culturally and politically is reflected to various degrees here in the UK and across much of Europe. There is indeed a kind of "crisis for democracy" which has led to an increase in populism and support for more far right political parties. The latter don't seem to offer real solutions to the problems many ordinary people face but they do reflect their growing frustrations and provide easy scapegoats.

As for the drivers of this, it seems pretty clear to me that the biggest one is growing economic and social inequality where the divide between the have and have nots is larger than it has been for some time. This leads to resentment, frustration and anger which is fertile ground for more extreme political groups to feed on. Changes in cultural values and perhaps an over tolerance for minority viewpoints has also had its impact. The so called "paradox of intolerance" where an overly tolerant society can lead to increased intolerance (e.g. "cancel culture").

I would bet, however, that if you asked most people what their biggest concern was, it would be immigration. Immigration is undeniably a genuine concern (and this includes the fact that a whole fifth of our workforce is foreign born mainly because Brits don't want to do the lower paid jobs and we don't produce enough of our own capable enough to fulfil the needs in certain higher paid sectors). Allowing so many thousands more into a country each year IS unsustainable as it puts far too much of a burden on health, education, housing and other systems and is far too much of an expense on the public purse. These issues are further inflamed by fears of a kind of cultural take over and degrees of Islamaphobia.

Many illegal immigrants come from countries where violence is a way of life, most have been exploited and some are indeed involved themselves in criminal activity but the majority are simply seeking to make a better life for themselves and family and want to work and contribute. The right, however, seize upon immigration as the root cause of the frustrations so many currently feel. Certainly, the levels of immigration and our lack of control over illegal immigration particularly are very genuine concerns but I would strongly argue that they are not the real cause of social and economic inequalities. Much of that comes from the failings of our own politicians and decisions they have made over the years.

As Al says, however much many may dislike Trump, he is likely to remain supported by most Americans because there simply appears to be no viable alternative leader who might be capable of uniting an increasingly divisive country. As for the UK, I personally think that Starmer does try to do the right thing on some issues but he is far too weak and inept and consistently fails to read the room. Sadly, the current alternatives are either Nige or Bad Enoch. Not great is it ? If only there was another Andy Burnham style candidate....

And all this at a time when the rise of China and Russia pose a growing threat to Western stability too!