O/T DDay for Brexit..well sort of...

[Exiletyke]

One of the great problems of politics - apart from the careerist scoundrels who pursue it as a profession - is that it is all about slogans and shibboleths rather than analysis. Thus the entire European political class spin the nonsense of the "Four Freedoms" which is intended to make people think, Oh yes that's right and reasonable, you can't have that one without the others. It's sh*te and the politicians know it's shyte: it's a pretend equivalence whre no equivalence exists. I buy games from Hexasim in France (freedom of goods) and from Gameslore in the UK, but the game from either is identical and apart from shelf space and cost makes no demand on me: they are completely interchangeable and I choose on price and service. Same with insurance or other services. Same with capital: Money doesn't exist in any meaningful sense, it's simply a medium of exchange.
But to compare those 3 freedoms with freedom of movement is a massive, massive lie. People need housing, they need schools, they need healthcare , they need support, they impact on the environment, on sewers, on water and utility supplies. They are not f*cking the same as goods, services and capital and to pretend they are is what is facilitating the rise of populism.

My word Wendun I'm quite impressed

[animallittle3]

One of the great problems of politics - apart from the careerist scoundrels who pursue it as a profession - is that it is all about slogans and shibboleths rather than analysis. Thus the entire European political class spin the nonsense of the "Four Freedoms" which is intended to make people think, Oh yes that's right and reasonable, you can't have that one without the others. It's sh*te and the politicians know it's shyte: it's a pretend equivalence whre no equivalence exists. I buy games from Hexasim in France (freedom of goods) and from Gameslore in the UK, but the game from either is identical and apart from shelf space and cost makes no demand on me: they are completely interchangeable and I choose on price and service. Same with insurance or other services. Same with capital: Money doesn't exist in any meaningful sense, it's simply a medium of exchange.
But to compare those 3 freedoms with freedom of movement is a massive, massive lie. People need housing, they need schools, they need healthcare , they need support, they impact on the environment, on sewers, on water and utility supplies. They are not f*cking the same as goods, services and capital and to pretend they are is what is facilitating the rise of populism.

My word you are right , talk about a light coming on .

Great assessment .

[BigLadonOS]

After last nights result who would back a peoples vote on leave with a deal or leave without a deal?

I would be happy to support that vote.

[KerrAvon]

I kind of agree. But wonder if the greens /change would join also?

It’s important to bear in mind that we are talking about the Euro elections here and that the results might well not translate into a GE. As an illustration, UKIP took over 27% of the vote in 2014, but achieved only a single MP in 2015 and none in the 2017 GE. The pattern of voting in the UK is that people often abandon the two main parties to register a protest vote in elections of little significance, but then return to the fold for GEs. That a GE is on first past the post is also highly significant as where support is concentrated becomes important.

The significance of the above is that it has questionable how many MPs the Greens would return and Change UK is unlikely to return any on its performance on Thursday (I think you will see defections from it to the Lib Dems in due course). I think the Brexit Party is strong enough to obtain a significant number of seats and I think the Lib Dems are capable of taking seats from both Labour and the Tories in those constituencies in which they were in second place in 2017.

Green is fairly far Left and so I can see them working with Corbyn. It’s highly questionable whether anyone from Change UK would; Corbyn wouldn’t stay in the same room as Umunna a few weeks ago, whilst the former Tories in the party are unlikely to work with the current Labour set up (Soubry is fairly well to the right).

I still think the most likely outcome of all this is a new Tory leader who tries to obtain a new deal, fails and then before sits on his or her hands until October 31st.

[animallittle3]

After last nights result who would back a peoples vote on leave with a deal or leave without a deal?

I would be happy to support that vote.

Absolutely not , fecked about long enough with this and besides Deal doesn't exist in all reality .

[animallittle3]

Corbyn and Co need to stop listening to what Islington wants and need to pick up faith with the voters north of Watford.

They either begin to support brexit or face a voter backlash that will destroy the party.

There’s not enough remain voters in the north to give them a credible chance of winning a general election.

Deaf as a post it seems .


https://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-voter-exodus

[a123]

After last nights result who would back a peoples vote on leave with a deal or leave without a deal?

I would be happy to support that vote.

Not going to happen.

The remain side want a vote which has your options plus remain as an option so they can split the leave vote and claim victory by default even if they don’t poll the magic 50% for remain.

[howdydoo]

After last nights result who would back a peoples vote on leave with a deal or leave without a deal?

I would be happy to support that vote.

Wouldn’t be happy to support this because we voted in 2016.

It seems we were all ill informed. Be that the case or not, do we scrap every close vote/election in history.

The world isn’t going to end if we come out with no deal. Again the masses are being fed a load of complete nonsense and everyone wants to rabbit on about it.

Just get it done and get on with it.

If there has to be a vote the two options you put up ie. vote leave with a deal or without can only be the options put forward.

If not, democracy is dead in this country.

Anyone who think remain took the higher ground or had the majority vote in this election want their bumps feeling.

I get a lot of people have stuck in a protest vote and supported a 6 week old political party. However, if the politicians keep on acting like children, the masses will do it again. If a GE comes along in the coming weeks, Farage and his party will win a lot of seats. A lot of seats.

People also need to look at the vote spread in England.

Looks to me that THIS COUNTRY is more for leave than it was in 2016.


Interesting times.

[ragingpup]

Quote Originally Posted by KerrAvon
Since when am I a remainer? I am hurt – wasn’t it Søren Kierkegaard who said ‘Once you label me you negate me’? It’s a bad habit.

I think there are valid arguments for both Leave and Remain. For me, the economic arguments clearly and indisputably support Remain. It's the political arguments for Leave that I find troubling and compelling.


How do square this rp

I said Kerr had said he voted Remain in the referendum (in sure he did but this thread sees me losing all sense of reality!) I've had run ins with Kerr as you know but in fairness he has made it clear that he has wanted to compromise via May's deal. He shared many a post with me as iwas arguing for the two parties to try further negotiations to try and get mps from both sides to form a majority for a deal. Kerr ain't to blame here.

What is there to square?

[ragingpup]

Corbyn and Co need to stop listening to what Islington wants and need to pick up faith with the voters north of Watford.

They either begin to support brexit or face a voter backlash that will destroy the party.

There’s not enough remain voters in the north to give them a credible chance of winning a general election.

How many times? 65% of Labour voters voted Remain. He could side with Leave but by simple maths, he would lose more voters.