O/T:- Vaccines: Pro/Anti & Conspiracy Theories [Originally Covid Pass and Meadow Ln.]

[magpie_mania]

The sensationalism and hyperbole is maybe why people are quick to blame 'the unvaccinated' for the current situation, and allows government to introduce - and a crap opposition to agree to - plans to exclude some people from day to day life despite the fact "it is still possible to catch and spread covid-19 even if fully vaccinated"* .
If you have had the vaccine why be worried if an unvaccinated person was to sit next to you at Meadow Lane, or think it right that the government could exclude people based on whether they have taken the vaccine when the vaccine doesn't stop transmission.

I'm concerned that people can be excluded from society based on whether they decline the covid-19 vaccine as I thought medical treatment wasn't meant to be based on coercion.
Once COVID passes become accepted I would worry this or future governments might mandate other medical choices to suit their agenda rather than letting the individual decide.


*gov.uk

It is still possible to catch Covid even if fully vaccinated, but much less likely, and if you do, much less likely to die or have serious illness . Some have used the seatbelt example, it's still possible to get seriously injured when wearing one, so there's no point.

I am not sure I agree with Covid passes etc (anyone can manufacture a negative LFT) but I don't agree with your last sentence.

[cher1]

Informed consent is good medicine. I was certainly warned specifically about myocarditis/pericarditis before having a booster on Friday. The cases seem to be mostly in younger males, and the study I looked at showed that in the US, in males under 30, there had been no deaths from myocarditis due to the vaccine. Most cases were mild or moderate.

The reality is that every medicine and medical or surgical procedure carry a risk, however tiny. The evidence for any age group still shows that is safer to be vaccinated than not to be vaccinated.

As for Japan, their vaccination rates is now amongst the highest in the world, so informed consent would appear to lead to most people choosing to be vaccinated.

[cher1]

As things stand, my prediction is that we will eventually reach the stage where we will need to have lockdowns, segregation etc. to protect vaccinated people (or at least the older and vulnerable among them) as the window of 'protection' offered by the vaccines ever narrows as the virus adapts and evolves in the reservoir of vaxxed with waning effectiveness.

I don't understand this. Vaccinated people (even as protection wanes) are less likely to catch covid than unvaccinated people. So surely they are a lesser concern in terms of needing protection. Why don't the unvaccinated also need protection?

[upthemaggies]

I don't understand this. Vaccinated people (even as protection wanes) are less likely to catch covid than unvaccinated people. So surely they are a lesser concern in terms of needing protection. Why don't the unvaccinated also need protection?

Stating the obvious, but it's worth thinking about - Being vaccinated or having natural immunity, doesn't give you an invisible force field around the body that prevents the virus entering through the nose/mouth. Your immune system still has to deal with it, so you have a degree of reaction to it, which might reach the point of symptoms you don't notice, mild symptoms and so on.

For the sake of argument, if somebody with very mild symptoms breathes out into a room for an hour, that might be no less volume of Covid in the air than somebody with heavy symptoms coming in for 10 minutes. The length of time I'm offering is random, but the point stands. Somebody with heavy symptoms will be sent home, somebody with mild won't necessarily be noticed.

The idea that people vaxxed are less likely to catch it and spread it is BS in my opinion.

Unvaxxed will not have had their natural immunity compromised by the cost benefit of the vaccine to deal with milder variants, particularly if they've had Covid which probably most have.

[BanjoPie]

Stating the obvious, but it's worth thinking about - Being vaccinated or having natural immunity, doesn't give you an invisible force field around the body that prevents the virus entering through the nose/mouth. Your immune system still has to deal with it, so you have a degree of reaction to it, which might reach the point of symptoms you don't notice, mild symptoms and so on.

For the sake of argument, if somebody with very mild symptoms breathes out into a room for an hour, that might be no less volume of Covid in the air than somebody with heavy symptoms coming in for 10 minutes. The length of time I'm offering is random, but the point stands. Somebody with heavy symptoms will be sent home, somebody with mild won't necessarily be noticed.

The idea that people vaxxed are less likely to catch it and spread it is BS in my opinion.

Unvaxxed will not have had their natural immunity compromised by the cost benefit of the vaccine to deal with milder variants, particularly if they've had Covid which probably most have.

It seems that you are trying to convince yourself that you are safe without being vaccinated - hope for your sake you are right!

[upthemaggies]

It seems that you are trying to convince yourself that you are safe without being vaccinated - hope for your sake you are right!

I hear what you say and there is something in that, but we're all doing it to some extent. A lot of the vaxxed are now doubling down. a lot of cognitive dissonance going on.

[macstop]

It seems that you are trying to convince yourself that you are safe without being vaccinated - hope for your sake you are right!

umm some people could reverse that whole sentence buddy.

[cher1]

The idea that people vaxxed are less likely to catch it and spread it is BS in my opinion.

The reality is though that your (presumably non medical?) opinion, just like mine, is of no consequence. The actual facts, from published, peer reviewed studies are that vaccination reduces the severity of illness, the likelihood of hospitalisations, and of death. As for transmission, even since the Delta variant arrived, vaccinated people are less likely to transmit covid than unvaccinated people.

[upthemaggies]

The reality is though that your (presumably non medical?) opinion, just like mine, is of no consequence. The actual facts, from published, peer reviewed studies are that vaccination reduces the severity of illness, the likelihood of hospitalisations, and of death. As for transmission, even since the Delta variant arrived, vaccinated people are less likely to transmit covid than unvaccinated people.

Our own opinion is of ultimate consequence to our own health. You could go as far to say that it's a life or death decision. I'm basing mine on non-captured medical opinion - the door to which was opened by gut instinct and an inquisitive mind.

[SwalePie]

From all the published statistical information it is extremely clear that the vaccines 'work' to varying levels in different groups of people. For example it would be extremely difficult to argue that they don't work against mortality from Covid-19 when just 1.2% of the deaths from the disease in England for the first half of 2021 were fully vaccinated individuals. ( I appreciate that in the timescale of this pandemic that is months out of date but it is a figure taken from strong and well reviewed data.)

Obviously that old chestnut that 'you can say anything you like using statistics' makes us all very wary of such data. However, when the data is consistently in the same range from multiple sources in multiple countries on multiple continents it should become harder and harder to question. With the arrival of the newest widespread variant, Omicron, and future variants, the data will probably vary from that from previous variants but hopefully not by much.

While I, like most people, would never question an individual's right to make their own choices for their own health, I do question why people do so in the face of such overwhelming information contradicting their views. Of course, like everyone else on here, I've made my choices based in large part on my own belief system, not just on the available facts. Ultimately this is where the polarisation comes from. From where I stand on this (and I am clearly in the pro-vaccine camp, for clarity) I hope that everyone who is labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' and thrown in the bin by the other 'team', can perhaps be slowly convinced by solid data to get protected and protect others by use of the vaccines and other precautions such as mask-wearing. That is my stance but I don't hate the 'other side', that would be pointless and damaging.

Anti-vaccine folk calling pro-vaccine people 'sheep' etc. and pro-vaccine people in return calling them ' tinfoil-hat nutters' etc. isn't helping humanity. This polarisation in recent years on so many issues, from Brexit to Trump and now Covid-19, fuelled in a massive way by social media's echo-chamber algorithms, is probably public enemy number two after the coronavirus pandemic at number one in our current world. Sad and dangerous times. I hope we can avoid breaking up friendships and remain good to each other regardless of our disagreements.