O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[swaledale]

I still think they'll get in at the next election. Unless, of course, the Scots have already claimed independence and the Little Englanders get hit with the fact that, without Scotland, England is done for. Problem with that is that Scotland will be gone (believe me, they ARE going), and rightly so, they've been shafted way too long by Wastemonster. They will not become the first ex UK "colony" to request to rejoin the fold following indy either.

In that case it wouldn't matter who got in as England would be crippled financially.

Why would Scottish independence cripple England financially?

Back in 2013, it was possible to use these figures to back the idea that Scotland paid slightly more into the UK’s coffers than it took out. That’s if you add up the tax and spending in those years cumulatively, and if you make a number of assumptions about Scotland’s finances, all of which are subject to argument.

But the overall balance was close, even allowing nationalist arguments about Scotland’s likely historic debt, higher UK public spending on Scotland almost completely cancelled out any surplus created by “Scottish” oil.

[Trickytreesreds]

I still think they'll get in at the next election. Unless, of course, the Scots have already claimed independence and the Little Englanders get hit with the fact that, without Scotland, England is done for. Problem with that is that Scotland will be gone (believe me, they ARE going), and rightly so, they've been shafted way too long by Wastemonster. They will not become the first ex UK "colony" to request to rejoin the fold following indy either.

In that case it wouldn't matter who got in as England would be crippled financially.

In Scotlands case Maddy, Sturgeon is very good at not talking about hidden costs like- pensions/defense/trade tariffs etc.

The free schooling/perscriptions would vanish over night.
I have Jock relatives, they know all this believe me.
Won't happen.

[MadAmster]

In Scotlands case Maddy, Sturgeon is very good at not talking about hidden costs like- pensions/defense/trade tariffs etc.

The free schooling/perscriptions would vanish over night.
I have Jock relatives, they know all this believe me.
Won't happen.

So, you're saying they don't currently pay for pensions, defence etc? Trade tariffs will reduce when they rejoin the EU. Take a look at how much they pay Wastemonster each year. Look at what they get back. About 60% of what they pay in. That 40% goes towards pensions, defence etc and is also used to pay for purely English projects like Crossrail and HS2.

Most of the UKs renewables come from Scotland. Tell me why the Scots pay more for Leccy than you do.

[Trickytreesreds]

So, you're saying they don't currently pay for pensions, defence etc? Trade tariffs will reduce when they rejoin the EU. Take a look at how much they pay Wastemonster each year. Look at what they get back. About 60% of what they pay in. That 40% goes towards pensions, defence etc and is also used to pay for purely English projects like Crossrail and HS2.

Most of the UKs renewables come from Scotland. Tell me why the Scots pay more for Leccy than you do.

Maddy, they pay for pensions like I do.
We all pay for the current crop of pensioners.
They will have to start from scratch.

As with defence, it's a national budget. Who the hell do you think tax wise, raises the most money for the armed forces?
They will have to start from scratch. Monetary/man power and its a big coast line.

so by your figures, how come the Jocks get £1800 spent per head more than England?
Your figures are so wrong. The days of the oil boom are gone, so that deficit no longer applies.
As for the EU?
It could take decades for it to happen, as they have to go through the same process as everyone else and that includes adopting the Euro.
Something Scotland won't do.
It definitely won't happen in my lifetime, never mind yours.
Wishful thinking for EU zealots.

Even if it did, expect a mass exodus south.
I hear it all the time.

[MadAmster]

Maddy, they pay for pensions like I do.
We all pay for the current crop of pensioners.
They will have to start from scratch.

As with defence, it's a national budget. Who the hell do you think tax wise, raises the most money for the armed forces?
They will have to start from scratch. Monetary/man power and its a big coast line.

so by your figures, how come the Jocks get £1800 spent per head more than England?
Your figures are so wrong. The days of the oil boom are gone, so that deficit no longer applies.
As for the EU?
It could take decades for it to happen, as they have to go through the same process as everyone else and that includes adopting the Euro.
Something Scotland won't do.
It definitely won't happen in my lifetime, never mind yours.
Wishful thinking for EU zealots.

Even if it did, expect a mass exodus south.
I hear it all the time.

There is no scratch re pensions. There is no Pension Fund. It comes out the central "pot".

Defence. They have paid a % of defence budgets for centuries. Shouldn't they get that % of the hardware? What about the Scots regiments, would they all have to move south?

[swaledale]

So, you're saying they don't currently pay for pensions, defence etc? Trade tariffs will reduce when they rejoin the EU. Take a look at how much they pay Wastemonster each year. Look at what they get back. About 60% of what they pay in. That 40% goes towards pensions, defence etc and is also used to pay for purely English projects like Crossrail and HS2.

Most of the UKs renewables come from Scotland. Tell me why the Scots pay more for Leccy than you do.

What part of depending upon which figures one uses the actual payments and receipts are about even do you not understand? Even during the oil boom, and those days have long gone, the imbalance was not significant.

The Scots Nationalists have refrained from updating the 2013 figures as well, wonder why that is?

I seem to remember we have had this debate before, the notion that Scotland in some way supports the English is often pedalled, but no economic research that I can find actually supports this, even if one makes very generous assumptions which the nationalists are prone to do, there is in no way the 60 - 40 difference that your quoting is true, at best its 90 - 10 in reality probably about even.

Electricity prices are set by the market, so the notion that Scots pay more than the English is nonsense, thats another reason why people (like me) who buy "solely renewable electricity" (its not actually possible to say where all the electricity comes from due to interconnection) pay the same or as those whose electricity is from gas or coal. It goes into the overall market and that sets the price.

Yes Scotland produces more renewables than other countries, but given that England sources electricity from Scotland, Wales, France, Norway as well as from its offshore wind farms, then the notion that Scotland could make a killing at Englands expense is fanciful, it will be able to sell the power at the market rate, if it charges over that, England would purchase from elsewhere. In any case thats not anything to do with Westminster, its set by private companies.

Then there are costs such as health. education, defence, pensions and repaying its share of the national debt, never mind the cost of a new currency.

As for rejoining the EU, maybe, (though what timescale are we talking here? 5 - 10 years AFTER independence? Its going to be a while before that would help. but given the vast majority of its trade is with England, tariff free trade with the EU isn't going to help is it?

The claim that Scotland subsidises England is a quaint one, but it is false!

Not sure why you think Scotland's government is any more efficient at using resources than Westminster? What evidence do you have for that?

[MadAmster]

The Scots have gas, oil, whisky, water, electricity. Most of which they export. There are a lot of other, similarly sized countries that manage perfectly well and only have some of the resources Scotland has. Why can they manage yet so many people think Scotland would fail?

That was my question. That is still my question. Please don't answer it with a question of your own

[Trickytreesreds]

The Scots have gas, oil, whisky, water, electricity. Most of which they export. There are a lot of other, similarly sized countries that manage perfectly well and only have some of the resources Scotland has. Why can they manage yet so many people think Scotland would fail?

That was my question. That is still my question. Please don't answer it with a question of your own

I just have answered it.
They could survive, but with a huge subtraction of current living standards.

Scotland’s budget deficit ballooned to 22 per cent of economic output in 2020-21, highlighting the scale of the fiscal challenge the country would face if it became independent of the UK anytime soon.
Forget your free schools and Prescriptions and the other perks.
So forget EU membership, they don't even come close.

Yes manage, but be prepared to take a massive reduction in living standards?

My soucres say, feck that.
Do yours? Or is it just wishful thinking on your behalf?

[MadAmster]

Jesus lads, the "smaller" countries I mentioned aren't paupers.

[swaledale]

Jesus lads, the "smaller" countries I mentioned aren't paupers.

I didn't say they were, but they have had a fair few years to develop to where they are now. IF Scotland had gained independence before the oil and gas boom AND had invested the proceeds wisely as per Norway, your argument might stand up.

However, that doesn't alter the fact that your original premise was that Scotland going independent would cripple England financially, as it contributes more financially than it receives back which it wouldn't and doesn't.