OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

No quite a different nation in many ways but then history was never your strong point!

Maybe not, but the tome remains the same.

Germany was smashed and divided in 1945.
With western help and money, it not only got back on its feet, but became the dominant economic power in Europe?

It has dominated European thinking and direction since. It has never paid its way for its own protection and simply leeched money from all around it,
You may love the EU Swale, but lots of us don't. Merkels dreams of her vision, of a mixed race super state are not what all of us want.
Dark times ahead, the Coudenhove-Kalergi plan endorsed by the EU in a prize, must never win

[ramAnag]

Oh God, not your obsession with that bloody 'plan' again. The point about Barnier was well made. Similarly Swale is right about the Germans, they've been consumed by guilt for what happened during the Nazi regime ever since. The rest of it...arrogant French, pompous Brits, bombastic Germans, excitable Italians and boring Belgians or whatever are just meaningless stereotypes. Sure you'll find high profile examples of all them but it goes no further than that.

[Andy_Faber]

Would not have thought that necessary to you in particular! A quick internet scan of german history since WW2 will provide the answers you seek, take too long to explain on here.

What I meant was do you mean geographically or culturally. My response to folk who bang on about Zee Chermanss is that they can't help being good at stuff...And IMO national stereotypes about Germans are more off the mark than for almost any other country I can think of, based only on my personal experience I'll admit

[Andy_Faber]

Says the man who boasts about English (American) being the preferred language of trade, travel and aviation...hysterical!

Yes...I agree the French can be a little arrogant...but aren't we Brits just as bad? 'Island Monkeys', as the Germans occasionally refer to us, who still think half the world is painted pink.

My original point wasn't about les Francais, give or take the odd spat I would consider them as individuals and as a nation to be friends and allies, my point was about a senior representative of the EU, making a (frankly pathetic) 'point', which someone more mature would have refrained from saying not only out of good manners but because let's face it, it ain't gonna happen. The second language, miles ahead of any other non-local language, taught in the two most populous countries in the world, China and India, is English. Monsieur Barnier obviously also missed the irony that his speech on the subject was made on a lecturn which described the nature of the meeting - in English.

[swaledale]

What I meant was do you mean geographically or culturally. My response to folk who bang on about Zee Chermanss is that they can't help being good at stuff...And IMO national stereotypes about Germans are more off the mark than for almost any other country I can think of, based only on my personal experience I'll admit

Both, geographically germany is a different country to what it was before WW1 and of course post WW2 was divided.

Culturally Germany like most countries is a mixture, as for national stereotypes, I've never found them to be on the mark tbh, sure there are traits which can be identified within all nationalities but a depiction of Germany as being focussed on power over europe is false. The germans believe in the EU precisely because they don't want a repeat of WW2 and believe mutual cooperation and interdependence is the key.

[Trickytreesreds]

Oh God, not your obsession with that bloody 'plan' again. The point about Barnier was well made. Similarly Swale is right about the Germans, they've been consumed by guilt for what happened during the Nazi regime ever since. The rest of it...arrogant French, pompous Brits, bombastic Germans, excitable Italians and boring Belgians or whatever are just meaningless stereotypes. Sure you'll find high profile examples of all them but it goes no further than that.

Ramanag, they have a prize in its name. Do you deny that?

[swaledale]

Maybe not, but the tome remains the same.

Germany was smashed and divided in 1945.
With western help and money, it not only got back on its feet, but became the dominant economic power in Europe?

It has dominated European thinking and direction since. It has never paid its way for its own protection and simply leeched money from all around it,
You may love the EU Swale, but lots of us don't. Merkels dreams of her vision, of a mixed race super state are not what all of us want.
Dark times ahead, the Coudenhove-Kalergi plan endorsed by the EU in a prize, must never win

Not only xenophobic, but rather dim with it and as always a purveyor of false news! You should not bother yourself with complex issues your too simple to understand and quite where you get your moral righteousness from is puzzling!

[ramAnag]

Ramanag, they have a prize in its name. Do you deny that?

Course I don't deny it. As far as I understand it Merkel won it seven years ago for her contribution to European unity which imo is a whole lot healthier than what is happening at the moment. The whole philosophy may have some dubious, rather idealistic and slightly anachronistic origins but only nutcases like Nick Griffin and David Icke make out it's something sinister. It's an irrelevance given credence only by eccentrics and the far right press.

[Trickytreesreds]

Course I don't deny it. As far as I understand it Merkel won it seven years ago for her contribution to European unity which imo is a whole lot healthier than what is happening at the moment. The whole philosophy may have some dubious, rather idealistic and slightly anachronistic origins but only nutcases like Nick Griffin and David Icke make out it's something sinister. It's an irrelevance given credence only by eccentrics and the far right press.

Whoah. so you choose to dilute its origins of, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richar...enhove-Kalergi

AND now ode of joy is the EU National anthem? lol

Become an ostrich

[swaledale]

Whoah. so you choose to dilute its origins of, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richar...enhove-Kalergi

AND now ode of joy is the EU National anthem? lol

Become an ostrich

So which is he eccentric or xenophobic right wing misinformed prat?