OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Whoah. so you choose to dilute its origins of, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richar...enhove-Kalergi

AND now ode of joy is the EU National anthem? lol

Become an ostrich

'Ode to Joy' was written approaching 200 years ago. It's been sung in all sorts of circumstances...at anti Pinochet rallies in Chile, in celebration of the demolition of the Berlin Wall and more recently at Macron's election victory celebrations. Iconic and celebratory piece of music...so what...what's your point?

[Andy_Faber]

'Ode to Joy' was written approaching 200 years ago. It's been sung in all sorts of circumstances...at anti Pinochet rallies in Chile, in celebration of the demolition of the Berlin Wall and more recently at Macron's election victory celebrations. Iconic and celebratory piece of music...so what...what's your point?

Lets get this straight. In a moment of forward thinking, so typical of old Lud, he wrote Ode to Joy with the SPECIFIC purpose of it being used as the soundtrack for the trailer of the greatest Christmas movie of all time, Die Hard.

Seriously, agreeing with Ramanag, its so widely used (and free of royalty!) that no point can be made about it apart from being a great bit of work by Beethoven.

TTR does have a point but I think there are other threats to nationhood/national identity far more likely to succeed than the Kalergi plan.

[Andy_Faber]

What puzzles me is that, given your recognition of what the impact of Brexit is likely to be - a judgement which oddly puts you entirely in agreement with Swale - why do you insist on defending it?

I'm neither defending it or not. I have consistently defended peoples' rights to vote as they saw fit, to defend such folk from accusations of doing so because they were too 'thick' to realise what they were doing, and studied and discussed (and in some cases, changed my views a bit on) the issues that influenced people.
But where I differ from others (I think) is acceptance, right from the moment Dimbleby banged the desk, that Brexit was happening, and that I needed to support the UK in whatever miniscule way I can to get the very best possible outcome from it. And I don't mean 'hard' or 'soft' Brexit, I mean a Brexit I would be OK with, which actually is very very close to what we have now

[ramAnag]

I'm neither defending it or not. I have consistently defended peoples' rights to vote as they saw fit, to defend such folk from accusations of doing so because they were too 'thick' to realise what they were doing, and studied and discussed (and in some cases, changed my views a bit on) the issues that influenced people.
But where I differ from others (I think) is acceptance, right from the moment Dimbleby banged the desk, that Brexit was happening, and that I needed to support the UK in whatever miniscule way I can to get the very best possible outcome from it. And I don't mean 'hard' or 'soft' Brexit, I mean a Brexit I would be OK with, which actually is very very close to what we have now

I get what you're implying about remainders having been a tad patronising and I understand that people had the right to vote whichever way they saw fit.
Having said that I do think the Brexiteers 'won' for two principle reasons. 1) The complacency of the Remainers 2) The impact of the untruths and misinformation put forward by certain - now very influential politicians - and the right wing press.
Beyond that though, two wrongs do not make a right. You seem to have accepted that Brexit is likely to impact badly upon the nation and particularly the very people who voted for it and yet you...intelligent, articulate and knowledgeable Andy...still seem so accepting of it just because our strange notion of democracy has sent our country off in this damaging direction. That's what I don't understand.

[roger_ramjet]

Whereas I, in far less words, entirely get wjat he is saying and agree with it 100%. You remainers are just like Nicola Sturgeon - if the referendum doesnt give you the result you want, you want to keep redoing it until it does. Then when on the 10th iteration the vote goes your way, thats fine and its over.

The democratic process has given an outcome. You may not be happy with it, you may cry foul, you may point to failings in the process, to lies and misinformation but that, sadly, is politics.

So we move on, we accept, we adapt - some more easily than Swale, and we figure out our own angles (as he seems to be doing). We try to find the positives and stop harping on about the negatives.

For so long as you keep focussing on thd negatives you will never move on ramAnag. Its just like the grieving process: your first steps are to come to terms with what has happened - Andy and I have. Perhaps you should as well ramAnag rather than contantly railling against the perceived injustice of the view of the majority of those voting.

[Manofpride]

Whereas I, in far less words, entirely get wjat he is saying and agree with it 100%. You remainers are just like Nicola Sturgeon - if the referendum doesnt give you the result you want, you want to keep redoing it until it does. Then when on the 10th iteration the vote goes your way, thats fine and its over.

The democratic process has given an outcome. You may not be happy with it, you may cry foul, you may point to failings in the process, to lies and misinformation but that, sadly, is politics.

So we move on, we accept, we adapt - some more easily than Swale, and we figure out our own angles (as he seems to be doing). We try to find the positives and stop harping on about the negatives.

For so long as you keep focussing on thd negatives you will never move on ramAnag. Its just like the grieving process: your first steps are to come to terms with what has happened - Andy and I have. Perhaps you should as well ramAnag rather than contantly railling against the perceived injustice of the view of the majority of those voting.

[ramAnag]

I rarely say this but that is absolute tripe Rog.
You voted 'Remain' and may be heartily sick of all the arguments, I know I am...and MoP you may well applaud Roger's attempt at closure but who started the bloody thread in the first place?

To liken this debate to the 'grieving process' is though untypical nonsense.
Grieving is a process you can do nothing about, a process that usually has to be gone through following bereavement, that you cannot change and have no alternative but to work your way through.
Brexit is not. There was an unbinding referendum that went a certain way. Whether I agree with it or not is hardly the point, but the facts are that since June 2016 our government has run around in ever decreasing circles paying attention to little else, industry and aspiring business people have repeatedly described the Brexit factor as unsettling and the majority of leading businessmen are virtually pleading for as 'soft' a Brexit as possible.

As for you and Andy having 'come to terms with what has happened' and moved on. Good for you, although Andy, in recent posts, has still conceded that Brexit is likely to cause us harm and that those who are already least well off are going to suffer the most. In such circumstances how can any thinking person simply 'move on'? It's a mistake, it is going to do us immeasurable damage and there are far better informed and more knowledgeable people than me saying so. All that has been achieved so far is that we have become increasingly alienated from our European neighbours. How the hell does that help?
If you take a wrong turning Rog the wisest thing to do is go back and get it right at the second attempt not just stubbornly plough on forward ignoring all the warning signs.

[Andy_Faber]

I rarely say this but that is absolute tripe Rog.
You voted 'Remain' and may be heartily sick of all the arguments, I know I am...and MoP you may well applaud Roger's attempt at closure but who started the bloody thread in the first place?

To liken this debate to the 'grieving process' is though untypical nonsense.
Grieving is a process you can do nothing about, a process that usually has to be gone through following bereavement, that you cannot change and have no alternative but to work your way through.
Brexit is not. There was an unbinding referendum that went a certain way. Whether I agree with it or not is hardly the point, but the facts are that since June 2016 our government has run around in ever decreasing circles paying attention to little else, industry and aspiring business people have repeatedly described the Brexit factor as unsettling and the majority of leading businessmen are virtually pleading for as 'soft' a Brexit as possible.

As for you and Andy having 'come to terms with what has happened' and moved on. Good for you, although Andy, in recent posts, has still conceded that Brexit is likely to cause us harm and that those who are already least well off are going to suffer the most. In such circumstances how can any thinking person simply 'move on'? It's a mistake, it is going to do us immeasurable damage and there are far better informed and more knowledgeable people than me saying so. All that has been achieved so far is that we have become increasingly alienated from our European neighbours. How the hell does that help?
If you take a wrong turning Rog the wisest thing to do is go back and get it right at the second attempt not just stubbornly plough on forward ignoring all the warning signs.

so, for R and all, here's the Faber manifesto for an acceptable Brexit/non-Brexit (devil in the detail obvs)

Free movement of people to be replaced by free movement of labour
A veto on any moves to greater political integration
A reduction in the weekly £150m-ish 'membership fee' to, lets say, £100m, until the EU can get its bureaucratic house in order (a single HQ would be a good start)
ECJ/ECHR to be replaced by something equally as bonkers in UK
EU seniors to be appointed by vote of the EU population (yes the logistics can be done, check out USA)
Major EU changes to be voted on by UK population (yes the logistics can be done, check out Switzerland)

to no doubt quote something that's been said repeatedly in the corridors of power, 'did I miss anything?'

[ramAnag]

so, for R and all, here's the Faber manifesto for an acceptable Brexit/non-Brexit (devil in the detail obvs)

Free movement of people to be replaced by free movement of labour
A veto on any moves to greater political integration
A reduction in the weekly £150m-ish 'membership fee' to, lets say, £100m, until the EU can get its bureaucratic house in order (a single HQ would be a good start)
ECJ/ECHR to be replaced by something equally as bonkers in UK
EU seniors to be appointed by vote of the EU population (yes the logistics can be done, check out USA)
Major EU changes to be voted on by UK population (yes the logistics can be done, check out Switzerland)
to no doubt quote something that's been said repeatedly in the corridors of power, 'did I miss anything?'

...and I'm sure many will agree with much of that. Unfortunately with that ridiculous referendum there was no 'detail'.
Off walking now...thankfully Roger isn't leading it otherwise we'd take a wrong turning...acknowledge and recognise it...and then carry on over the cliff regardless.

[Trickytreesreds]

so, for R and all, here's the Faber manifesto for an acceptable Brexit/non-Brexit (devil in the detail obvs)

Free movement of people to be replaced by free movement of labour
A veto on any moves to greater political integration
A reduction in the weekly £150m-ish 'membership fee' to, lets say, £100m, until the EU can get its bureaucratic house in order (a single HQ would be a good start)
ECJ/ECHR to be replaced by something equally as bonkers in UK
EU seniors to be appointed by vote of the EU population (yes the logistics can be done, check out USA)
Major EU changes to be voted on by UK population (yes the logistics can be done, check out Switzerland)

to no doubt quote something that's been said repeatedly in the corridors of power, 'did I miss anything?'

Screw it, I'll take my chances. OUT

And good riddance. It had merit after WW2 to stop the fighting. Today, it is an outed closed shop modem, that actually causes poverty across the Mediterranean.
It had its moment and is now just a vehicle for Germany to dominate.

I'll happily take the short economic hit and will celebrate when it eventually implodes