O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Andy_Faber]

Still...naive, idealistic, dogmatic...keep it coming...but if the two of you could offer some substantiation it’d be useful and it’s interesting that, lost in all this, was AF’s original unprovoked and again unsubstantiated assertion that both MA and I are guilty of naivety. Maybe the two of you could explain how that is the case.

It was provoked, it was provoked by MA being naive. I actually agree with MA’s sentiment but his total post isn’t well thought through

[ramAnag]

It was provoked, it was provoked by MA being naive. I actually agree with MA’s sentiment but his total post isn’t well thought through

He said...dogmatically...in line, as ever, with the gospel according to St. Andy...either way, why drag me into it?

[Andy_Faber]

He said...dogmatically...in line, as ever, with the gospel according to St. Andy...either way, why drag me into it?

That not dogma, you clearly don’t get that either. It’s just an opinion. But if you want a discussion, let’s look at what MA said:

‘If an employer doesn't pay a PROPER wage from which an employee can afford to house, clothe and feed a family (partner and 2 kids) and also be able to afford a few "luxuries" like a holiday, a car..... that "person" is NOT an employer, they are a modern day slave driver.’

‘Employer’. That presumably includes the cafe owner in a local village who employs a cook and a waiter on a bit above minimum wage who have a three month notice period and can go home by car dead on time (and do) to a nice home where their well paid husbands are deciding on a second family holiday in Turkey or Israel (which they’ve now booked). Meanwhile the cafe owner and his wife work 6am til 7pm six days a week and some Sundays, haven’t taken a holiday for a number of years and (I’m guessing) are holding off on having a family due to the knife edge economics of their business. I THINK they hate their business and one of the reasons they carry on is because they don’t want to let down their staff.

I know this because I compiled their accounts for the last two years

There’s MA’s ‘modern day slave driver’

I think the guy who runs the small publishing house that publishes my magazine is in a similar situation although I don’t know the numbers side. I do know it’s making him ill. I’m guessing there are thousands of small medium business owners in a similar situation

So yes MA is being naive

[ramAnag]

That not dogma, you clearly don’t get that either. It’s just an opinion. But if you want a discussion, let’s look at what MA said:

‘If an employer doesn't pay a PROPER wage from which an employee can afford to house, clothe and feed a family (partner and 2 kids) and also be able to afford a few "luxuries" like a holiday, a car..... that "person" is NOT an employer, they are a modern day slave driver.’

‘Employer’. That presumably includes the cafe owner in a local village who employs a cook and a waiter on a bit above minimum wage who have a three month notice period and can go home by car dead on time (and do) to a nice home where their well paid husbands are deciding on a second family holiday in Turkey or Israel (which they’ve now booked). Meanwhile the cafe owner and his wife work 6am til 7pm six days a week and some Sundays, haven’t taken a holiday for a number of years and (I’m guessing) are holding off on having a family due to the knife edge economics of their business. I THINK they hate their business and one of the reasons they carry on is because they don’t want to let down their staff.

I know this because I compiled their accounts for the last two years

There’s MA’s ‘modern day slave driver’

I think the guy who runs the small publishing house that publishes my magazine is in a similar situation although I don’t know the numbers side. I do know it’s making him ill. I’m guessing there are thousands of small medium business owners in a similar situation

So yes MA is being naive

Being dogmatic is putting forward your opinion as being undeniably true...something you regularly do but now accuse me of doing.

As regards MA...I think most people recognised the context he was describing and it had nothing to do with one man cafe/publishing businesses and second home owners. He was talking in far more general terms but you simply dogmatically dismissed him as naive and then, when asked to justify yourself eventually came up with the aforementioned ‘extremes’ which no one could sensible disagree with.

That though is your argument with MA and I’m sure he is more than capable of sticking up for himself.

At the same time, and this was the ‘unprovoked’ bit, you attempted to make me the ‘benchmark’ for naivety (however you wish to spell it) on the forum. I’d really like to know how you’ve reached that conclusion. It’s easy to accuse, rather harder to justify accusations.

You then proceeded, aided and abetted by GP, to accuse me of being dogmatic - being unable to accept being wrong - which again coming from the two of you really is laughable.

It’s a funny old place the forum at the moment. If I speak in favour of MA you rather childishly talk of me defending my ‘allies’. If I support Swale’s views you and GP will accuse me of being his ‘mate’ or ‘rear gunner’ and yet it’s never the same when the boot is on the other foot with you, GP and TTR is it? Strange that.

I can’t keep up with your mood swings Andy...one minute you’re praising my honesty, the next you’re attacking me...one moment you’re speaking generously about my choice of occupation (vocation in your words) and the next you’re attempting (unsuccessfully) to take the p*ss out of me being a retired teacher. Personally I take less and less notice of what you write because you seldom substantiate anything and speak increasingly with all the consistency of a Government policy maker.

Sorry...forgot...all imo!

[Andy_Faber]

Being dogmatic is putting forward your opinion as being undeniably true...something you regularly do but now accuse me of doing.

As regards MA...I think most people recognised the context he was describing and it had nothing to do with one man cafe/publishing businesses and second home owners. He was talking in far more general terms but you simply dogmatically dismissed him as naive and then, when asked to justify yourself eventually came up with the aforementioned ‘extremes’ which no one could sensible disagree with.

That though is your argument with MA and I’m sure he is more than capable of sticking up for himself.

At the same time, and this was the ‘unprovoked’ bit, you attempted to make me the ‘benchmark’ for naivety (however you wish to spell it) on the forum. I’d really like to know how you’ve reached that conclusion. It’s easy to accuse, rather harder to justify accusations.

You then proceeded, aided and abetted by GP, to accuse me of being dogmatic - being unable to accept being wrong - which again coming from the two of you really is laughable.

It’s a funny old place the forum at the moment. If I speak in favour of MA you rather childishly talk of me defending my ‘allies’. If I support Swale’s views you and GP will accuse me of being his ‘mate’ or ‘rear gunner’ and yet it’s never the same when the boot is on the other foot with you, GP and TTR is it? Strange that.

I can’t keep up with your mood swings Andy...one minute you’re praising my honesty, the next you’re attacking me...one moment you’re speaking generously about my choice of occupation (vocation in your words) and the next you’re attempting (unsuccessfully) to take the p*ss out of me being a retired teacher. Personally I take less and less notice of what you write because you seldom substantiate anything and speak increasingly with all the consistency of a Government policy maker.

Sorry...forgot...all imo!

Any chance of just calling a truce? Be better for both/all of us (purely IMO)

[MadAmster]

I had indeed overlooked "subsistence" businesses. My comments are, IMO, still valid for the mass of employers. Look today at the rail companies. Locked in a dispute with their staff over pay rates for all the lower paid staff. Basically, the drivers are on a good screw but the resy of the staff aren't. They want a decent rise. The PRIVATE owners are wanting to get them to work more night shifts, more weekends and reduce the premium rates for doing so. They want to reduce the amount of safety checking which is likely to result in less safe travel. There are whispers that these PRIVATE companies want to negotiate but HMG are telling them they can't. What the hell has this got to do with HMG. Weird that HMG didn't stop them paying hundreds of millions in dividends..... or is it?

Same with Royal Mail, who claim to be losing money hand over fist. They were, however, able to pay some £400M in dividends last year to their owners/shareholders. Now they are pleading poverty. That is simply poor management who now wish to remedy matters by minimising RM's postal services, sack 10K employees and then rehire them to their new parcel led, gig economy, self employed company on 20% less pay.

There's my modern day slave driver. They need rooting out and sorting out.

[Andy_Faber]

I had indeed overlooked "subsistence" businesses. My comments are, IMO, still valid for the mass of employers. Look today at the rail companies. Locked in a dispute with their staff over pay rates for all the lower paid staff. Basically, the drivers are on a good screw but the resy of the staff aren't. They want a decent rise. The PRIVATE owners are wanting to get them to work more night shifts, more weekends and reduce the premium rates for doing so. They want to reduce the amount of safety checking which is likely to result in less safe travel. There are whispers that these PRIVATE companies want to negotiate but HMG are telling them they can't. What the hell has this got to do with HMG. Weird that HMG didn't stop them paying hundreds of millions in dividends..... or is it?

Same with Royal Mail, who claim to be losing money hand over fist. They were, however, able to pay some £400M in dividends last year to their owners/shareholders. Now they are pleading poverty. That is simply poor management who now wish to remedy matters by minimising RM's postal services, sack 10K employees and then rehire them to their new parcel led, gig economy, self employed company on 20% less pay.

There's my modern day slave driver. They need rooting out and sorting out.

After which clarification we are closer to agreement, thanks

[Geoff Parkstone]

Don't drag me into your sppat rA, my only contribution was to try to lighten the tone with a minor snitter

[ramAnag]

You dragged yourself in, GP...post #2963. Don’t comment if you don’t want to get dragged in to it. Easy.

A ‘truce’? Probably for the best as such ‘personal’ conflict is usually very boring to others. Maybe you could pm details of my ‘naivety’ and ‘reluctance to be wrong’ if you feel so strongly about it.
Or maybe you could just make less personal and more rational criticisms from here on in.
Your choice...I don’t really care but, again imo, it’s unwise to attack what you’re then unable to defend.

[Andy_Faber]

You dragged yourself in, GP...post #2963. Don’t comment if you don’t want to get dragged in to it. Easy.

A ‘truce’? Probably for the best as such ‘personal’ conflict is usually very boring to others. Maybe you could pm details of my ‘naivety’ and ‘reluctance to be wrong’ if you feel so strongly about it.
Or maybe you could just make less personal and more rational criticisms from here on in.
Your choice...I don’t really care but, again imo, it’s unwise to attack what you’re then unable to defend.

A truce it is then