O/T:- Mr George Floyd RIP

[BigFatPie]

Well I'm sure he'll have focus grouped the bejeezus out of it.

About Lammy's recommendations - you said some should be implemented. Could you give examples of one you really like and one you don't? Or at least one to implement straight away and one that you think can wait?

As regards stats and whataboutery - were you aware of those cases before Dam posted them? I wasn't. Can you name any other white people shot by US police? I can't.

How many cases of police brutality against black people are you aware of? I can name a few off the top of my head and am vaguely aware of a few more. I also have the general impression that for the last few years we have been in the middle of a spate of police on black shootings.

How many fatal shootings by police do you think there are per year in the US? Of these, How many do you think are of white suspects and how many of black suspects? What proportion do you think would be proof of institutional racism rather than a willingness by police to use firearms across the board?

I'm asking you these things not to catch you out exactly, but to see if the perception you have is correct. Mine wasn't.

Blimey, I’ve not been asked so many questions since I was last late home from the pub.

Regarding the Lammy Review, this government commissioned it, so it’s for the government to say why they’re not implementing any or part of it before launching the latest sham, I mean commission. Much of it is closely tied up in the justice system about which I know very little. Before anything happens, they have to adequately fund that justice system, which they haven’t managed to do for the last 10 years.

As to your other questions, I’m acquainted with some of those answers but I’d rather know what you think that are and what your take is on them.

[upthemaggies]

Blimey, I’ve not been asked so many questions since I was last late home from the pub.

Regarding the Lammy Review, this government commissioned it, so it’s for the government to say why they’re not implementing any or part of it before launching the latest sham, I mean commission. Much of it is closely tied up in the justice system about which I know very little. Before anything happens, they have to adequately fund that justice system, which they haven’t managed to do for the last 10 years.

As to your other questions, I’m acquainted with some of those answers but I’d rather know what you think that are and what your take is on them.

The Tony Timpa case is particularly disturbing......
"Tony Timpa wailed and pleaded for help more than 30 times as Dallas police officers pinned his shoulders, knees and neck to the ground.
“You’re gonna kill me! You’re gonna kill me! You’re gonna kill me!”
After Timpa fell unconscious, the officers who had him in handcuffs assumed he was asleep and didn’t confirm that he was breathing or feel for a pulse.
As precious minutes passed, the officers laughed and joked about waking Timpa up for school and making him waffles for breakfast.
Body camera footage obtained Tuesday by The Dallas Morning News shows first responders waited at least four minutes after Timpa became unresponsive to begin CPR. His nose was buried in the grass while officers claimed to hear him snoring -- apparently unaware that the unarmed man was drawing his last breaths."
He had already been handcuffed by a private security guard before police arrived. He never threatens to hurt or kill the police.

I don't suppose many people in the UK know about it though.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/inve...-timpa-s-life/

[drillerpie]

Blimey, I’ve not been asked so many questions since I was last late home from the pub.

Regarding the Lammy Review, this government commissioned it, so it’s for the government to say why they’re not implementing any or part of it before launching the latest sham, I mean commission. Much of it is closely tied up in the justice system about which I know very little. Before anything happens, they have to adequately fund that justice system, which they haven’t managed to do for the last 10 years.

As to your other questions, I’m acquainted with some of those answers but I’d rather know what you think that are and what your take is on them.

The first lot of questions was to try to lure you into expressing an opinion about Lammy's recommendations, and away from the "he's black, they're black, they must be good recommendations and anyway I'm white so who am I to comment?" dynamic. The justice system affects us all.

The second lot of questions is about gauging perceptions so it doesn't really work if I tell you first. If you tell me what you think (preferably without Googling) I'll post my sources and you can pick fault with them afterwards if need be.

[drillerpie]

The Tony Timpa case is particularly disturbing......
"Tony Timpa wailed and pleaded for help more than 30 times as Dallas police officers pinned his shoulders, knees and neck to the ground.
“You’re gonna kill me! You’re gonna kill me! You’re gonna kill me!”
After Timpa fell unconscious, the officers who had him in handcuffs assumed he was asleep and didn’t confirm that he was breathing or feel for a pulse.
As precious minutes passed, the officers laughed and joked about waking Timpa up for school and making him waffles for breakfast.
Body camera footage obtained Tuesday by The Dallas Morning News shows first responders waited at least four minutes after Timpa became unresponsive to begin CPR. His nose was buried in the grass while officers claimed to hear him snoring -- apparently unaware that the unarmed man was drawing his last breaths."
He had already been handcuffed by a private security guard before police arrived. He never threatens to hurt or kill the police.

I don't suppose many people in the UK know about it though.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/inve...-timpa-s-life/

It was extremely disturbing but I think we can say they didn't mean to kill him and had no idea they were in fact killing him. I think we can also say that if he had been black it would've looked like (and been reported as) racist policemen murdering a black man.

[BigFatPie]

The first lot of questions was to try to lure you into expressing an opinion about Lammy's recommendations, and away from the "he's black, they're black, they must be good recommendations and anyway I'm white so who am I to comment?" dynamic. The justice system affects us all.

The second lot of questions is about gauging perceptions so it doesn't really work if I tell you first. If you tell me what you think (preferably without Googling) I'll post my sources and you can pick fault with them afterwards if need be.

Funnily enough, the Tory MP Steve Baker, not necessarily known for his wokeness, tweeted exactly the same conclusion as I did as regards the Lammy Review.

https://twitter.com/stevebakerhw/sta...377061896?s=21

As I’ve sort of said already, this isn’t really a data led issue. There are vastly more white people in both the US and UK so it isn’t greatly surprising that more are arrested and/or shot. Black people are telling us of their experiences with the police and/or justice system. Regardless of stats, I’m not telling them they’re wrong.

[drillerpie]

Funnily enough, the Tory MP Steve Baker, not necessarily known for his wokeness, tweeted exactly the same conclusion as I did as regards the Lammy Review.

https://twitter.com/stevebakerhw/sta...377061896?s=21

As I’ve sort of said already, this isn’t really a data led issue. There are vastly more white people in both the US and UK so it isn’t greatly surprising that more are arrested and/or shot. Black people are telling us of their experiences with the police and/or justice system. Regardless of stats, I’m not telling them they’re wrong.

Ok so I think I'll leave it there. I get the impression (happy to be corrected if wrong) that you process the world through the prism of people rather than facts. We've exchanged probably 15 posts each and never really got stuck into any facts, its all been about people and their race / status / previous political views and whether that allows them to have an opinion or not.

Of course you would expect more white victims of police shootings in a majority white country, that's why I was asking you what proportion would be 'acceptable' (not a great word I know) and what proportion would be an indication of racism. Your last sentence shows that literally no evidence based argument could ever change your mind and cast doubt on the identity based ideas you have, something I find really strange and to be honest worrying for the future.

[upthemaggies]

We'd need to know if there are vastly more white people in the areas that unarmed people are being shot. Presumably "white trash" wouldn't speak very favorably of their experiences with the police either whilst blacks in more affluent areas would be more supportive, which is why I would maintain this is a class issue and not an issue of race.

There is a good discussion about the cult of woke as a tool of oppression of the working classes and its' effect of maintaining the status quo at the link, the lady among the three speakers is mixed race half-Indian by the way, not that her race should have anything to do with what she has to say but sadly I feel the need to point it out.
https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/4...working-class/

Adolph Reed, a black American professor of political science, who specializes in race relations, is worth checking out as well.
“Despite its affective packaging, the disposition to catalogue and aggregate neatly rounded-off identities is in no meaningful way radical. Not only is it evocative of nine****th-century essentialisms, it also reproduces the mindset of the mass information industry, which, though public opinion and market research, sorts the population into the demographic equivalent of sound bites—market shares, taste communities—all in service to the corporate sales effort and management of the national political agenda.”

[BigFatPie]

Ok so I think I'll leave it there. I get the impression (happy to be corrected if wrong) that you process the world through the prism of people rather than facts. We've exchanged probably 15 posts each and never really got stuck into any facts, its all been about people and their race / status / previous political views and whether that allows them to have an opinion or not.

Of course you would expect more white victims of police shootings in a majority white country, that's why I was asking you what proportion would be 'acceptable' (not a great word I know) and what proportion would be an indication of racism. Your last sentence shows that literally no evidence based argument could ever change your mind and cast doubt on the identity based ideas you have, something I find really strange and to be honest worrying for the future.

I’m sorry you feel like that, but that post is patronising nonsense. I asked you to post your facts, and tell me your conclusion, but some reason you didn't want to, and then you accuse me of not being interested in facts. I’ve made it clear through all of this exchange that I’m no expert and don’t feel qualified to answer many of the questions the subject poses.

You asked me what I thought the government should do next, I give you a straightforward answer that a right wing Tory MP agrees with, but apparently all I have is ‘identity based ideas’. You appear to think it’s unreasonable that I hold actual black people’s experiences as strong evidence on the subject of black people and the justice system.

All very strange. I can only assume you feel silly basing your opinions of a large people-led movement on one article by a person whose qualifications appear non existent. How many of your ‘facts’ did he use? Farage isn’t getting much attention currently, maybe you could ask him what he thinks about it all as well?

[Notsohumblepie]

I’m sorry you feel like that, but that post is patronising nonsense. I asked you to post your facts, and tell me your conclusion, but some reason you didn't want to, and then you accuse me of not being interested in facts. I’ve made it clear through all of this exchange that I’m no expert and don’t feel qualified to answer many of the questions the subject poses.

You asked me what I thought the government should do next, I give you a straightforward answer that a right wing Tory MP agrees with, but apparently all I have is ‘identity based ideas’. You appear to think it’s unreasonable that I hold actual black people’s experiences as strong evidence on the subject of black people and the justice system.

All very strange. I can only assume you feel silly basing your opinions of a large people-led movement on one article by a person whose qualifications appear non existent. How many of your ‘facts’ did he use? Farage isn’t getting much attention currently, maybe you could ask him what he thinks about it all as well?

I sometimes feel that you think nuance is a child abuser

[upthemaggies]

You appear to think it’s unreasonable that I hold actual black people’s experiences as strong evidence on the subject of black people and the justice system.

"Black people" don't all speak with one voice, you can be selective as to which black voices you choose to listen to.
Take this for example.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F8PeZ0d64I

Would you argue with this young lady or accept everything she says because she's black?