O/T:- Covid Trump

[jackal2]

Yes I use ‘false equivalence’ because apologists try and use ‘false equivalence’ to compare what happened the other day with the George Floyd protests.

I’m certainly not “an apologist” for what happened the other day. Why would I need to be? I didn’t cause it and I wasn’t involved in it. I don’t even live in the United States and I certainly don’t condone violence there or anywhere. My point was that both protests reflect the anger of two (or more) groups of American people, whether their cause is deemed to be “legitimate” or not.

Those [George Floyd] protests wouldn’t have happened if George Floyd hadn’t been murdered.

Obviously. I said that in my post. And I also stated very directly that the protest on Wednesday wouldn’t have happened without Donald Trump’s actions and words.

What would have prevented what happened on Wednesday?

A good question with an answer that illustrates my point.

The protests on Wednesday would not have happened if the political establishment (Democrat or Republican) had not ignored the views of a sufficient swathe of American citizens to the point where they voted to select Donald Trump as a Presidential candidate and then elect him as President in 2015 with his “clear the swamp” message.

Donald Trump’s bunch of “cranks and loonies”, as viewed by the establishment, turned out to be sufficient in numbers and votes to put Trump in power, and weren’t far from returning him again this year, because a lot of them obviously still don’t believe their views and fears are heard by anyone else.

People protesting against long term systemic discrimination isn’t the same as what happened the other day.

The results are the same – anger, violence and a degree of anarchy. So arguing subjectively about the relative moral legitimacy of one protest compared with another doesn’t solve anything, and certainly doesn’t lessen the threat of ‘extremism’.

If sufficient numbers of people feel their views are ignored by the national or international political establishment, then it isn’t unknown for them to overthrow that establishment, irrespective of which political wing the dissenters come from, or how “right” or “wrong”, or “good” or “evil”, or “genuine” or “false” their feelings and intentions are in their own right or in equivalence to any others. I can almost hear Basil Fawlty’s words: “This is exactly how Nazi Germany started!”

Speaking of which…

You yourself have refused to even try and explain what they were protesting/rioting about, because there is no rational explanation. It’s got nowt to do with ‘subjective judgment’. What was going through this chap’s mind for example?

I would guess he’s either a Nazi or someone pretending to be a Nazi. Media photographers with a certain agenda love to pick out such distinctive individuals as being typical of a huge group of protestors, much like the right-wing media picked out images of the angriest, most militant-looking left-wing protestors when they wanted to paint a simplistic picture of strikers back in the 1970’s and 80’s.

In any case, it matters not a jot what value judgements you or I make of this protestor, or any group of protestors. The fact remains that if enough people feel they have a grievance that is not being heard, or even that their view is being suppressed, then they are liable to become ever more angry and radical.

I appreciate that the “moderate” political establishment (as they see themselves) might find it distasteful to communicate with groups who have “radical” or “extreme” views, or try to understand why they feel the way they do, but if such conversations do not take place and solutions aren’t found, these groups do not go away. They recruit others who feel marginalized, grow in size, and potentially become the new political establishment.

Ironically, your apparent opinion that the current political establishment should only regard certain types of protest as legitimate, and that others should be ignored or presumably suppressed, is far more likely to cause the eventual triumph of extremism than if ALL groups with grievances feel they are able to express their view and be heard. That’s far more likely to begin the immense task of resolving the divisions in America than ignoring parts of the country, whichever parts they happen to be.

[BigFatPie]

Jackal, Your post raises a few questions.

Regarding Wednesday’s events, who listens to whose concerns or grievances and what do you think they are? And what do you think will happen if they’re not listened to? (the obvious answer being they might launch an attack on the legislative and try to overthrow an election but we’ll forget about that for the time being).

[BigFatPie]

Jackal, Your post raises a few questions.

Regarding Wednesday’s events, who listens to whose concerns or grievances and what do you think they are? And what do you think will happen if they’re not listened to? (the obvious answer being they might launch an attack on the legislative and try to overthrow an election but we’ll forget about that for the time being).

Jackal, you seem uncharacteristically reticent to reply to that, so to help you think about the people whose grievances we should be listening to, here’s a picture of them beating a policeman. It’s from a video that’s been widely circulated.

[jackal2]

Jackal, Your post raises a few questions.

Regarding Wednesday’s events, who listens to whose concerns or grievances and what do you think they are? And what do you think will happen if they’re not listened to? (the obvious answer being they might launch an attack on the legislative and try to overthrow an election but we’ll forget about that for the time being).

Over 74 million Americans voted for Donald Trump. No doubt amongst them (and clearly amongst the protesters last Wednesday) were a section of Nazis, Q Anon conspiracy theorists and other right-wing nut jobs. Likewise, Biden’s 81 million voters no doubt will have included a section of leftist nut jobs including the Antifa mob, who are very proficient in causing chaos and attacking law and order.

You seem keen to foster the emotive notion that the violent, extreme element involved in the protests last week are representative of all those who protested, and all those who voted for Trump. That’s as ridiculous as saying that thugs like Antifa are representative of all the 81 million who voted for Biden.

What we know is that there are 74 million Americans who, after 4 years of Donald Trump’s presidency, chose to re-endorse his policies rather than the ones proposed by Biden and the Democrats.

I would suggest that Biden needs the listen and respond to the concerns and grievances of that 74 million, not least for his own benefit. Those concerns will be complex and wide-ranging, but what we do know is that Trump’s “drain the swamp” mantra appealed to a lot of them. The perception seems to be that the Washington elite (and by no means just Democrats) are increasingly disconnected from the views, needs and fears of small town America.

A good starting point for the new President will be to demonstrate with words and actions that he is listening very carefully to those parts of America that didn’t vote for him. This is notably where Trump fell short during his four years in that he tended to dismiss his opponents too readily and often rather rudely, which is a good way to push those folk closer to the likes of Antifa.

Biden has already said he will “govern for all Americans”. However, those who voted twice to “drain the swamp” are likely to regard that as typical political establishment bullsh*t. Biden through his actions needs to show the vast, non-violent, non-extreme majority of those 74 million Trump supporters that he does care about them and their communities and does hear their concerns, and that he will seek to address at least some of them.

A good starting point is to make very clear in his attitude, words and actions that he does not dismiss almost half of America as a bunch of redneck racist, reckless gun-toting, religious fundamentalist idiots. I’m not suggesting he does think that, but there are plenty on the left who are only too happy to create that emotive impression and use it as a reason to completely dismiss their concerns as “wrong” and “not worth listening to”.

If Biden succeeds in reaching out to just some Trump voters, then not only will he stand a decent chance of re-election (health permitting), but he will undermine their impression – real or not - that the political establishment doesn’t hear or listen to them. In turn, this will diminish the risk of increasing numbers of these people getting driven in frustration towards more extreme methods of making themselves heard.

[i961pie]

No matter what happens to Trump those grievances that the 70 million voters had that voted for him won't go away.
They may go quiet for a while, months maybe years but unless they are listened to all it will take is another individual to come along and
awaken it.

[Disturbed]

What Biden needs to do is allow the voting machines to be looked into (forensics) and the ballots audited. This would then prove who was telling the truth and shut the other side up once and for all.

[BigFatPie]

‘Biden has already said he will “govern for all Americans”. However, those who voted twice to “drain the swamp” are likely to regard that as typical political establishment bullsh*t. Biden through his actions needs to show the vast, non-violent, non-extreme majority of those 74 million Trump supporters that he does care about them and their communities and does hear their concerns, and that he will seek to address at least some of them’.

Ok, putting last week’s events to one side, let’s pretend that those were indeed despicable people who were in no way representative of Trump voters more generally. Those particular people obviously wanted to overturn the election result, but what other concerns should Biden address that would indeed demonstrate that he cares about Trump voters and their communities?

Also, how did any of those people benefit from voting for Trump in 2016?

[i961pie]

‘Biden has already said he will “govern for all Americans”. However, those who voted twice to “drain the swamp” are likely to regard that as typical political establishment bullsh*t. Biden through his actions needs to show the vast, non-violent, non-extreme majority of those 74 million Trump supporters that he does care about them and their communities and does hear their concerns, and that he will seek to address at least some of them’.

Ok, putting last week’s events to one side, let’s pretend that those were indeed despicable people who were in no way representative of Trump voters more generally. Those particular people obviously wanted to overturn the election result, but what other concerns should Biden address that would indeed demonstrate that he cares about Trump voters and their communities?

Also, how did any of those people benefit from voting for Trump in 2016?

Only an American living over there can tell you that, I know members and ex members of the military are mainly pro republican whoever the leader is.

[jackal2]

Ok, putting last week’s events to one side, let’s pretend that those were indeed despicable people who were in no way representative of Trump voters more generally.

I’m not asking you to pretend. You’re entitled to think whatever you wish to think of them.

It seems implicit that you believe these despicable people are representative of many Trump supporters, and I get the impression from posts you’ve made in the past that you think much the same about Brexit voters and maybe anyone who votes for conservative parties. I may be wrong though. If that cap doesn't fit, then I don't expect you to wear it.

Some people who consider themselves “progressives” do seem to regard pretty much any right-leaning view as despicable, even when it is expressed to them in a measured, respectful way. This loathing of anything “unprogressive” manifests itself frequently through online platforms but also in parts of the media and wider society. People who express views at odds with the “progressive” agenda are often subject to scorn and portrayed as outcasts, using whatever pejorative term is closest to hand.

It’s therefore little wonder that many right-leaning folk tend to keep their opinions to themselves to avoid such hassle. But they don’t disappear. In fact, when they witness people who share similar views getting treated to the ire of “progressives”, especially on social media, it makes them all the more determined to kick back through a referendum like Brexit, and elections like the UK General Election and the US Presidential Election.

Amazingly, victories for the likes of Trump, Brexit and Boris Johnson somehow still come as a shock to some “progressives”, who genuinely don’t seem to appreciate how effective they are in creating or mobilising the very voters they despise. That shock then manifests itself in even more hostility towards those who dare to publicly express the “wrong” views or vote the “wrong” way, and the whole thing continues to ratchet up. It’s in this climate that someone like Donald Trump was able to enter the political stage from nowhere, portray himself as aggressively ‘anti-establishment’ and ‘anti-progressive’, and attract around 70 million votes. Twice.

Ironically, having opportunistically profited from the mistakes of the political establishment in 2015, Donald Trump then made the same mistake in return. He ignored or showed complete disdain for anyone who dissented from his views. He didn’t just alienate moderate left-wing folk and centrists, but some right-wing folk too. In the same way that the arrogance of the political class pushed some voters unexpectedly towards him in 2015, his own arrogance pushed some of them back again in 2020.

So how does Biden avoid the mistakes that won and lost Trump the Presidency?

What concerns should Biden address that would indeed demonstrate that he cares about Trump voters and their communities?

You said the other day that you now wanted Biden to push through an intensive progressive agenda, or words to that effect. The problem with that, at least as a blanket policy, is that he is effectively in charge of (at least) two countries within a huge country.

The Democrat-voting states obviously provided his basic mandate, but even within those states will be many Republicans and moderate Democrats who do not want the pace of change to go too fast. Likewise, in the Republican voting states there will be many people fearing that change will be imposed on them at great pace across a huge range of social and economic policy areas, including the ones which always cause the most emotive debate.

If Biden is going to govern for all America, rather than just those who believe in a liberal/left agenda, he needs to recognise these fears concerns even if he doesn’t fundamentally agree with them. He must manage the pace of change differently in different parts of the country, which can be done in America by giving individual states leeway to implement his agenda at a pace that is sensitive to their individual characteristics.

If Biden does this, he is more likely to succeed in the changes he wishes to make, and he is more likely to convince at least some amongst 70-plus million very sceptical (and in some cases angry) people that his intention is not to attack and destroy their culture and way of life, but to gently modify it.

On the flipside, if he imposes policy change too fast in a “one size fits all” way, and is seen to be ignoring those who complain or resist, or worse still treating them with disdain, then he will reinforce the perception that Washington is a remote self-serving swamp, reduce his chances of being a two-term President, and fuel the agenda of right-wing anarchists, much like Trump's attitude fuelled Antifa.

[BigFatPie]

Hmm, I’m still none the wiser as to what you think Trump voter’s concerns are or what Biden should do to assuage them. I’ve no idea what you think he should do to prevent another attack on the Capitol, or other acts of domestic terrorism. Drain the swamp’ is a catchy slogan, but like many populist slogans is essentially meaningless. 15,000 troops are being deployed to DC for the inauguration.

As I said before, Trump has awakened the latent racism that many people feel, however I think you are ducking that issue. I do think that Biden will find it difficult to contain that genie, but even so will be a far better president than Trump, and will benefit the vast majority of Trump voters far more than Trump himself. I think is still forgotten that politicians should be in office to improve people’s lives rather than just being the best at getting people to vote for them. But as you’ve said before, you don’t mind politicians lying to you. I think we’ve seen in the last year where that leads to.