O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[sidders]

As far as I can see, no one so far on this fred has raised the question of why 17 African countries failed to vote at the UN against Russian aggression.
It may seem a distraction to focus on that but I think it uncovers some ***** context to what is happening.
While the West has violently assaulted North Africa and the Middle East, Russia and China have been skilfully using diplomacy as a counter to the west's imperialism. What gave us the right to walk into other sovereign states and impose our solutions?
Yes, Putin is a liar and a tyrant but a very clever one and not all right is on NATO's side. As I have said before, to seek a diplomatic solution, you first need to see a conflict through the eyes of your enemy.

[BigFatPie]

As far as I can see, no one so far on this fred has raised the question of why 17 African countries failed to vote at the UN against Russian aggression.
It may seem a distraction to focus on that but I think it uncovers some ***** context to what is happening.
While the West has violently assaulted North Africa and the Middle East, Russia and China have been skilfully using diplomacy as a counter to the west's imperialism. What gave us the right to walk into other sovereign states and impose our solutions?
Yes, Putin is a liar and a tyrant but a very clever one and not all right is on NATO's side. As I have said before, to seek a diplomatic solution, you first need to see a conflict through the eyes of your enemy.

Huh, Putin has ‘skilfully used diplomacy’? Sid, you are aware of the atrocities Putin has carried out in Georgia and Syria?

[nw6pie]

As far as I can see, no one so far on this fred has raised the question of why 17 African countries failed to vote at the UN against Russian aggression.
It may seem a distraction to focus on that but I think it uncovers some ***** context to what is happening.
While the West has violently assaulted North Africa and the Middle East, Russia and China have been skilfully using diplomacy as a counter to the west's imperialism. What gave us the right to walk into other sovereign states and impose our solutions?
Yes, Putin is a liar and a tyrant but a very clever one and not all right is on NATO's side. As I have said before, to seek a diplomatic solution, you first need to see a conflict through the eyes of your enemy.

“Diplomacy” is the wrong word here - China has basically poured billions into building African infrastructure and is making poor countries dependent on it; Russia is filling the void left by America’s retreat from Africa and Asia, and everyone there is afraid of upsetting Putin - especially given the fragile economic state of countries such as Egypt and Libya. It’s economic necessity, plain and simple.

[Old_pie]

“Diplomacy” is the wrong word here - China has basically poured billions into building African infrastructure and is making poor countries dependent on it; Russia is filling the void left by America’s retreat from Africa and Asia, and everyone there is afraid of upsetting Putin - especially given the fragile economic state of countries such as Egypt and Libya. It’s economic necessity, plain and simple.

Russia wants a port in the Red Sea. Eritrea has nice company: Belarus, Syria, North Korea, Russia. Even China didn't vote against. Putin saw a gap in Africa and jumped into it.

[sidders]

“Diplomacy” is the wrong word here - China has basically poured billions into building African infrastructure and is making poor countries dependent on it; Russia is filling the void left by America’s retreat from Africa and Asia, and everyone there is afraid of upsetting Putin - especially given the fragile economic state of countries such as Egypt and Libya. It’s economic necessity, plain and simple.

Agreed - diplomacy was the wrong word. Strategy might have been better.

[keldsyke]

Worrying…

Russia is asking China for both military and economic assistance, according to reports in the Financial Times and New York Times newspapers.

Moscow wants Beijing to provide military supplies to use in Ukraine, the FT says.

Citing unnamed US officials, the FT reported that Russia had been requesting Chinese equipment since the start of the invasion. The officials declined to specify what kind of equipment Russia is seeking.

The report added that there were indications that China may be preparing to help.

A separate report in the New York Times - again citing US officials - alleges Russia is also asking for economic assistance to mitigate the impact of sanctions.

China has so far sought to portray itself as neutral in the Russia-Ukraine conflict and has not condemned the invasion.

On Monday US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan is expected to hold talks with a top Chinese foreign policy official, Yang Jiechi, in Rome.

Speaking to NBC on Sunday, Sullivan said the US would "ensure that China nor anyone else" can compensate Russia for its economic losses.

[irishpete]

Worrying…

Russia is asking China for both military and economic assistance, according to reports in the Financial Times and New York Times newspapers.

Moscow wants Beijing to provide military supplies to use in Ukraine, the FT says.

Citing unnamed US officials, the FT reported that Russia had been requesting Chinese equipment since the start of the invasion. The officials declined to specify what kind of equipment Russia is seeking.

The report added that there were indications that China may be preparing to help.

A separate report in the New York Times - again citing US officials - alleges Russia is also asking for economic assistance to mitigate the impact of sanctions.

China has so far sought to portray itself as neutral in the Russia-Ukraine conflict and has not condemned the invasion.

On Monday US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan is expected to hold talks with a top Chinese foreign policy official, Yang Jiechi, in Rome.

Speaking to NBC on Sunday, Sullivan said the US would "ensure that China nor anyone else" can compensate Russia for its economic losses.

Be very surprised if China gets involved. Rely too much on the Dollar for starters in business. But this is the problem, China is a big player in everything & we need to get away from it. We need to start becoming a productive Country again & not reliable on others especially when it comes to lining the pockets of Russia & China

[irishpete]

Talks between Ukraine & Ruskis more promising but a what price? Rumour this morning that they will never join NATO, if so, what was the war all about? Could have been agreed before all the loss of life & bombings. Don't believe the Ukrainian people would agree to this

[Old_pie]

Talks between Ukraine & Ruskis more promising but a what price? Rumour this morning that they will never join NATO, if so, what was the war all about? Could have been agreed before all the loss of life & bombings. Don't believe the Ukrainian people would agree to this

They might agree not to join NATO providing they are permitted to join the EU. And they may have to formally agree to the annexation of some of territory including Crimea and some eastern regions. The rest of the world might have something to say before they are prepared to start lifting the sanctions. All very complicated and beyond my wit.

[drillerpie]

Putin's objectives were: ruling out NATO membership, demilitarisation (ie Ukraine rendering themselves defenceless in the future), and denazification (ie the murder/abduction Zelinsky and the installment of a pro-Russian puppet government).

If Ukraine can agree to rule out NATO membership, but keep their government and the ability to run their own defences (hard to imagine they won't want to re-arm significantly after this) then it might be seen as a worthwhile deal.