Election Year or Fear!

[Andy_Faber]

Better things to do, AF. In my world if you make an allegation you should be able to substantiate it. .

Ok. Out of nowhere and not pertinent to the conversation (caps mine for emphasis) you wrote

West Ham fans in the early eighties ? smashed up every - COINCIDENTALLY (?) ASIAN OWNED - shop around the BBG after a League Cup night match

how could you know either the totally of destruction or the ethnicity of ownership? How could the West Ham fans know? I reads like a desperate and invented attempt to pop some virtue signalling into the debate but I bet you knew it not to be true when you wrote it

See, we all do it

[Geoff Parkstone]

In defence of rA here a moment, there is a strong likelihood that every shop in the environs of the BBG at the time was Asian owned....

of course that means there is no need to say "Asian owned" but who doesnt like a little embroidery.

[ramAnag]

Ok. Out of nowhere and not pertinent to the conversation (caps mine for emphasis) you wrote

West Ham fans in the early eighties ? smashed up every - COINCIDENTALLY (?) ASIAN OWNED - shop around the BBG after a League Cup night match

how could you know either the totally of destruction or the ethnicity of ownership? How could the West Ham fans know? I reads like a desperate and invented attempt to pop some virtue signalling into the debate but I bet you knew it not to be true when you wrote it

See, we all do it

Lol! Is that it? Is that really the best you’ve got?

Even you say it’s ‘not pertinent to the conversation’, so why mention it? But here goes, by way of reply.

Firstly, context is everything. The Liverpool thread had moved away from the specific incident to Sith (because he is, I think, the youngest of us all) asking when the problem of hooliganism began.
I replied that my first memories of it were Millwall in the early-mid sixties but that the worst I’d actually witnessed was West Ham fans smashing up the area around the BBG in the late seventies/early eighties.

If you knew anything at all you’d know that West Ham, like Millwall, at that time had a reputation for having a significant proportion of fans who were noted for their violence and also their racist behaviour.
As even GP acknowledges, the area around the BBG, was well known for its Asian population and the vast majority of shops in the area being Asian owned.
As it happens, that night I had to walk back from the BBG across Normanton to Stafford Street where I had parked outside a mate’s flat.
The initial part of that journey was the most frightening of my ‘football life’. It is the only time I have ever seen the police corralling ordinary match goers saying it was not safe to go up certain streets and when we eventually made it through the labyrinth of little streets that surrounded the BBG to get away up Normanton Road we saw that virtually every shop we passed had had its windows broken and now appeared to be protected - a bit shutting the stable door after the horse had bolted - by groups of angry and upset Asians.

That is what I saw. That is how I know. I used the term ‘coincidentally?’ because I cannot be 100% certain that the violence was racially motivated, but given the common knowledge of Normanton’s population and the reputation of a significant number of West Ham’s travelling supporters for organised violence and racist thuggery at the time, it doesn’t seem unlikely.

I recognise that you’ve been desperately trying to discredit anything I say since your flawed anecdotes were questioned and exposed earlier in the year but no…we don’t all do it. You do. I don’t, and you may believe what you like…but every word of that account is true.

[MadAmster]

The man who posts someone posted something palpably untrue, refuses to back it up by explaining exactly what was untrue about it and then asks for examples from others.

Round and round in circles we go. Where it ends up, nobody knows.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"even GP..." thats the last time I come to your defence !!

I do think it fair to say that, based on my experience of West Ham fans at the time, they would have smashed the shops up regardless of ownership by Asians or even if owned by welsh hillfarmers or aliens from Uranus. Were they racist? By and large yes, but did they enjoy trashing places? Very much so. So probably a double benefit: skinheads were equal opportunity hooligans.

[SithHappens]

A new mega poll suggests Reform will be the biggest party if an election were held today

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2777255.html

Puts them on 271 seats, labour 178, lib dems 81 and tories 46

While I still think the current levels of support for Reform won't be maintained, it would be interesting if it did happen.

Firstly, it would not be a majority and I really don't see any if the other parties forming a coalition. Maybe the tories if they had enough seats but not on these numbers.

Is it feasible labour, lib dems and tories form a coalition to keep Reform out of no 10?

Secondly, Farage as PM, should it happen we know he's not capable of being a serious politician who could do the job of PM. Would he step down as leader immediately or try and have a go at it? I know comments have been made about Starmers longevity as PM, but I would put money on Farage not lasting 6 months.

I still think it's a moot point and labour will rally enough to secure a vastly reduced majority or at least the ability to form a coalition with the lib dems.

[Trickytreesreds]

A new mega poll suggests Reform will be the biggest party if an election were held today

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2777255.html

Puts them on 271 seats, labour 178, lib dems 81 and tories 46

While I still think the current levels of support for Reform won't be maintained, it would be interesting if it did happen.

Firstly, it would not be a majority and I really don't see any if the other parties forming a coalition. Maybe the tories if they had enough seats but not on these numbers.

Is it feasible labour, lib dems and tories form a coalition to keep Reform out of no 10?

Secondly, Farage as PM, should it happen we know he's not capable of being a serious politician who could do the job of PM. Would he step down as leader immediately or try and have a go at it? I know comments have been made about Starmers longevity as PM, but I would put money on Farage not lasting 6 months.

I still think it's a moot point and labour will rally enough to secure a vastly reduced majority or at least the ability to form a coalition with the lib dems.

You see Sith, what I see in your post, is something similar to what the Germans do.
The politicians will bend the rules and go against an election result, to keep their status quo together, despite the population saying enough.
You show a pol, that says the public voters are rejecting the same old , same old spew from Tories and Labour and their collective failures to rectify issues upsetting them

So instead of addressing the problems and looking at where they failed. The solution is to manipulate the situation to stop something they(politicians) and voters(losing side) , don't want?

What the hell is the point of first past the post then?


On a side note, will the pilot be acknowledging now, that Reform isn't the dismissive joke he made it out to be?
He scoffed, mocked, and growled at those saying any other.

Unfortunately, this situation echoes the point Andy was making to RA, about him using racist, bigot, and all manner of words to describe folks having a different opinion to his. Reform it seems, that despite all those labels the left and RA use are a genuine outlet for many in this country.

Someone in the main parties surely must look at this and think, what are we doing wrong? But they don't it appears, want to change.

[Andy_Faber]

Lol! Is that it? Is that really the best you’ve got?

Even you say it’s ‘not pertinent to the conversation’, so why mention it? But here goes, by way of reply.

Firstly, context is everything. The Liverpool thread had moved away from the specific incident to Sith (because he is, I think, the youngest of us all) asking when the problem of hooliganism began.
I replied that my first memories of it were Millwall in the early-mid sixties but that the worst I’d actually witnessed was West Ham fans smashing up the area around the BBG in the late seventies/early eighties.

If you knew anything at all you’d know that West Ham, like Millwall, at that time had a reputation for having a significant proportion of fans who were noted for their violence and also their racist behaviour.
As even GP acknowledges, the area around the BBG, was well known for its Asian population and the vast majority of shops in the area being Asian owned.
As it happens, that night I had to walk back from the BBG across Normanton to Stafford Street where I had parked outside a mate’s flat.
The initial part of that journey was the most frightening of my ‘football life’. It is the only time I have ever seen the police corralling ordinary match goers saying it was not safe to go up certain streets and when we eventually made it through the labyrinth of little streets that surrounded the BBG to get away up Normanton Road we saw that virtually every shop we passed had had its windows broken and now appeared to be protected - a bit shutting the stable door after the horse had bolted - by groups of angry and upset Asians.

That is what I saw. That is how I know. I used the term ‘coincidentally?’ because I cannot be 100% certain that the violence was racially motivated, but given the common knowledge of Normanton’s population and the reputation of a significant number of West Ham’s travelling supporters for organised violence and racist thuggery at the time, it doesn’t seem unlikely.

I recognise that you’ve been desperately trying to discredit anything I say since your flawed anecdotes were questioned and exposed earlier in the year but no…we don’t all do it. You do. I don’t, and you may believe what you like…but every word of that account is true.

I m not interested in your history lesson, the fact is you offered a falsehood and (just IMO) knew you did when you wrote it, which is hypocrisy given your comments elsewhere. End of discussion from me for the sake of the other posters

[ramAnag]

I m not interested in your history lesson, the fact is you offered a falsehood and (just IMO) knew you did when you wrote it, which is hypocrisy given your comments elsewhere. End of discussion from me for the sake of the other posters

Duck me, Andy. ‘History lesson’! What are you on?
You accuse me of virtue signalling and dispute the details of an account you asked for clarification of and now you’re still banging on about me ‘offering a falsehood’ and accusing me of hypocrisy before running away again ‘for the sake of other posters’.

What ‘falsehood’? Where is the example of ‘hypocrisy’? Stop writing the first thing that comes into your head and grow up.

[ramAnag]

P.S. You want a date for the game? Just looked it up…7th October 1981. Paul Goddard was playing…for them! Derby lost 2-3 but it sounds closer than it was if I remember correctly. Anything else you need…let me know.