Is the NHS broken beyond repair..?

[sinkov]

Don't worry OC - Labour/Tories both want out so we are leaving.

More Fake News 59/60, both Labour and the Tories campaigned for us to Remain in the EU, it was the people who voted to Leave. The Tory government are simply carrying out the democratically expressed wish of the people, as they are obliged to do, and as they promised they would before the referendum.

[1959_60]

Fake news?

Both the Tories and Labour are supporting Brexit...so nothing can stop it - no matter what anyone else says or does.

I am actually feeling a lot more happy about it following the Irish issues being sorted out like they were.

If we get a similar deal overall then it will be acceptable to me.

Not as good as staying in, but not a disaster.

[CaspertheClaret]

I hate how the EU referendum became politicised.

I have no political leanings and believe that our political system(and most others) is divisive and serves no purpose in current format.

I was strongly pro leave because I want us to be a creative strong force of invention in helping shape a new world not limited by ridiculous bureaucratic panderings. Politics in the formats we have now has now become as outdated as religion - let it go.

[sinkov]

Fake news?

Both the Tories and Labour are supporting Brexit...so nothing can stop it - no matter what anyone else says or does.

I am actually feeling a lot more happy about it following the Irish issues being sorted out like they were.

If we get a similar deal overall then it will be acceptable to me.

Not as good as staying in, but not a disaster.

59/60, why would anyone, especially the government, want to stop it ? On June 9th 2015, the House of Commons divided on the 2nd reading of the Referendum Bill, it passed overwhelmingly by 544 votes to 53, basically just the SNP opposing it. Tim Farron certainly voted for the Referendum Bill, so I assume did all the LibDem MPs, it sailed through the Lords as well. So this referendum was supported by the entire political class apart from the ScotNats, it was not just a Tory whim. The government then sent out a leaflet to every household in the land clearly stating "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide". It seems fairly unequivocal to me, all the three main parties agreed to let the people decide, the government is now doing no more or less than they promised, and carrying out the wishes of the people by taking us out of the EU.

I totally fail to see how they can be expected to do otherwise. You may not like the result, many don't, most Tory MPs don't, you may feel it will damage the country, many Tory MPs think the same, but they accept that the will of the people must prevail. For a LibDem to demand another referendum in these circumstances is not just perverse, it's shameful. The LibDems were the first party to call for an in/out EU referendum, they organised a petition demanding we be granted one, Clegg walked out of the Commons in protest when Gorbals Mick refused a LibDem amendment calling for one. And now you've had the referendum you've wanted for years, but you don't like the result, so you want another one.

Do you really expect voters to take the LibDems seriously ? And you 59/60, despite your misgivings about Brexit, should be hanging your head in shame for going along with this nonsense.

[oldcolner]

Threads get crossed
As this one goes to Brexit, so Guns in America moves to the NHS

http://boards.footymad.net/showthrea...8209980&page=3

Worth a look if the title of this thread is what you want

[1959_60]

Often the case OC. It's a bit like a conversation in a pub on here. We start talking about the price of fish and end up discussing the size of our brassicas.

Sinkov, suppose you had a vote at home on whether to emigrate. The emigrators won 3-2. During this vote the destination was not known.
After further discussions it looked like the only viable option for the destination was Beirut.
Should the family be forced to go to Beirut, or should they have a say in the matter? Not much of a democracy in this household if that is the case.
"We voted to emigrate and now you want a second vote? You should be ashamed"

Sorry that this thread has gone off topic BT but that's how it goes!

[sinkov]

Sinkov, suppose you had a vote at home on whether to emigrate. The emigrators won 3-2. During this vote the destination was not known.
After further discussions it looked like the only viable option for the destination was Beirut.
Should the family be forced to go to Beirut, or should they have a say in the matter? Not much of a democracy in this household if that is the case.
"We voted to emigrate and now you want a second vote? You should be ashamed"

59/60, with respect your analogy is ridiculous. The question asked was quite clear and the LibDems voted for it, it was the same referendum question the LibDems had been demanding themselves for years, the EU, in or out. So the destination, as you call it, was clear, out of the EU, but we're not actually going anywhere at all, we'll simply be governing ourselves, and all we are doing now is negotiating the terms of our withdrawal and our future relationship with the EU. And as everyone, including the LibDems, knew this would be the inevitable consequence of a Leave vote, there is nothing that has happened since requiring a 2nd in/out vote at all. Except of course in the fevered imaginations of those who simply have difficulty coming to terms with the democratic decision of the British people.

But let's take your demand for a 2nd referendum to it's logical conclusion, you say it's based on OPs which show the electorate has changed it's mind and would now vote to stay. So you get a 2nd referendum and we vote to Remain, I strongly suspect the EU might well say 'Sorry, we've had enough of this nonsense, you wanted out, so out you go', but assume they have us back.

In a year's time, with further centralisation of powers to Brussels, an expensive EU army forming, an expanding EU budget requiring us to increase our contributions, several OPs now show support has swung the other way and we would now vote to Leave again. Can we have a 3rd referendum ? Perhaps to allow for the changing of minds we should have a rolling referendum, one a year just to be safe ?

Can you see where this idea of a 2nd referendum is leading, is that what you want ? As you LibDems are no strangers to barking mad ideas, perhaps it is.

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Simple solution; retain access to the single market, keep the Customs Union, pay an agreed severance package and move on.

The people decided and democracy must prevail.

The Lib Dems need to stop talking, they have no power, no-one is listening and they really are a busted flush.

[1959_60]

We are not asking for a second referendum because people have changed their minds. We have consistently said that we accept that people had voted to leave the EU - but NO ONE was aware of the implications. BT wants to stay in the single market and customs union. So do I. Other people don't.
So when we can see the final deal I think that, as a democracy, the people should have the final say - not just Theresa May.
This will be the single biggest decision our country will take since the second world war and as such, we should have our say.
If we, as a country, accept the deal that will be brokered then fine - job done. But if The People decide that it will be detrimental to the country then SURELY they have a right to be heard?

Democracy is ongoing - not just a single vote on a certain day. We were never given the facts, as you well know, but the facts of the deal will be available pretty soon. What is wrong with the people making an informed decision.

And the majority of people are now saying the same thing - not just the wooly Lib Dems.

Why are you frightened of democracy?

[The Bedlington Terrier]

Personally I'm not frightened of democracy at all!

This was a one-off game changer or not at all.

Fixed not fluid were the Rules of Engagement on the Brexit referendum.

Vote "For" or "Against". End of.

I wanted to leave and after months of consideration both pre and post Brexit I still think that is the right call.

We all knew what the stakes were and from a personal viewpoint a second referendum would present a call to arms!