O/T:- Transgenders in sport

[cher1]

Trans women are not "a boy who feels feminine", though. From talking to my trans friends, it cuts far far deeper than that - and indeed, is not the same as "boys who feel feminine", who in my experience present themselves in an entirely different way. There may be concern about one group being pushed towards the other (in both directions - this is what the calls to ban trans conversion therapy are about) but it is widely accepted they are not the same group.

Female vs open categories - I thought I was clear why not, but the answer is the near-impossibility of defining "female" for this purpose. "Female vs male" means those at the edges of the split get placed where it is seen to make most sense. "Female vs open" means some kind of specific gatekeeping about what defines a female, which will define many athletes (assigned/observed as female at birth, raised as female, always considered female) as "other" . Simply put, I do not believe - even with invasive tests and enforced hormones - we have an answer for that.

The lack of therapy full stop is a far bigger issue than any lack of exploratory therapy - as the Cass Interim Report makes very clear (see pages 51 and 69 in particular). Indeed it points to that lack of therapy as a cause of the drive towards affirmative approaches:

From the point of entry to GIDS there appears to be predominantly an affirmative, non-exploratory approach, often driven by child and parent expectations and the extent of social transition that has developed due to the delay in service provision.

Finally, I think the "don't believe women when they support trans rights" stance is pretty problematic. Her competitors didn't just stay quiet and refuse to speak out - they openly and loudly expressed their support. See https://www.newsweek.com/why-im-prou...pinion-1689192 for example.

I don't think anyone can say what a trans man or woman is. There's no definitive diagnosis. And my point was about young people who feel they don't belong because they don't fit narrow gender stereotypes, and particularly girls on the autistic spectrum who are over represented in this group, and what might happen to them.

There's really no issue defining female in sport, unless males want to take females places. Unless you are referring to inters e x which isn't what we are taking about here anyway.

I've agreed about the lack of therapy, and it's a huge safeguarding concern. And that makes giving puberty blockers without adequate therapy first even more dangerous. I also agree about the concerning drive to affirmative therapy, that's a major concern.

What do you make of David Bell's case?

Or Helen and Michael Webberley?

Maybe the third and fourth competitors did think it was a great idea to compete against Lia, others didn't and have said so. Many athletes have spoken about the unfairness of this scenario (maybe not this particular case) including Sharron Davies, Paula Radcliffe, Dame Kelly Holmes, Lord Coe, and several current GB athletes - male and female.

Can I ask how you would keep women safe in contact sports? World Rugby for example have conducted a thorough review and concluded that safety and fairness cannot presently be assured for women competing against trans women in contact rugby. Also that there's at least a 20-30% greater risk of injury risk factors when a female player is tackled by someone who has gone through male puberty.

[PedroTheFisherman66]

I found it strange the other day that Kier was on TV discussing how windfall taxes for the energy companies was a solution for reducing fuel Bill's then all of a sudden after trying to ridicule the solution they then asked him what his definition of a woman was...!
Who says our Media isn't tainted

[MarcusCole]

I found it strange the other day that Kier was on TV discussing how windfall taxes for the energy companies was a solution for reducing fuel Bill's then all of a sudden after trying to ridicule the solution they then asked him what his definition of a woman was...!
Who says our Media isn't tainted

How can you claim to stand for women's rights if you can't even define what a woman is? Labour try to stand on that claim but it rings hollow when you ask them to define what they mean.

[BanjoPie]

What if a transgender woman wanted to compete in sport as a man?

[OchPie]

No but I think we ARE talking about inters e x. Such athletes are disproportionately represented in women's athletics, for example: World Athletics says 7.1 in every 1000 elite female athletes are DSD athletes. Once you start gatekeeping and "defining female", that DOES become a huge issue - for them even more than for trans athletes. As I mentioned, such athletes are already forced to take hormones in order to compete. In sport, it's really not possible to say there's no issue. Any attempt to gatekeep out trans athletes *will* impact DSD athletes. And there is already gatekeeping targeting DSD athletes in some sports, particularly athletics.

What do you mean by "David Bell's case"? His report? I think he highlighted serious concerns but was also not involved in the care of the children and never worked for GIDS. He also doesn't seem to think trans people should exist. I think what became the final result in Bell vs Tavistock (not the same Bell of course) had it right.

The Webberleys, I am reading about the ongoing tribunal but anything operating outside of regulatory oversight is a bad idea.

Of course some women support Lia and other trans women participating in women's sport, others do not. As a guy it's not my battle to fight but I will stick up for my many female friends who take the "should be able to" side. And while big name athletes do come out against trans women's participation, I suspect there are many on the other side nervous to do so. Either way, neither side has the monopoly on any group's opinion - there are trans women who do not think trans women should be allowed, as well.

On rugby, well I think going sport by sport is essential. Children's rugby already has weight banding in some places, which makes a lot of sense to me - that 20-30% you talk about is accounted for to a very large degree by the differences in weight. There's a bigger question as to whether rugby is safe enough full stop, of course. Again, maybe instead of looking at this through the trans lens alone, there's a bigger question to face. Average trans women and the biggest cis women are likely to have pretty similar body weights. It's not just about the averages, even if it is also about the averages.

[applepie2]

How can you claim to stand for women's rights if you can't even define what a woman is? Labour try to stand on that claim but it rings hollow when you ask them to define what they mean.

The lack of clarity on terminology doesn’t help at all, but there is more biological variety than most of us are aware of. The law as it stands at the moment doesn’t define “woman” as person with a vagina or “man” as person with a *****, and asking a politician for a simplistic definition is done to catch them out. If I was asked for a definition of “man” or “woman” I could give a simplistic definition, which would be correct in the vast majority of cases, or I could try to be more accurate.

In sport, it’s difficult to be fair to women without being unfair to both interse-x and transgender people, but I hope we can find some way of allowing women to compete with each other without being at an unreasonable disadvantage. It would help if transgender people were generally respected and not talked about as if they are typically a threat. It would also help if transgender activists could all avoid claiming that anyone who disagrees with them is motivated by hatred.

[OchPie]

What if a transgender woman wanted to compete in sport as a man?

Depends on whether they've taken hormones as part of their transition, but if so they generally can. Chris Mosier is the most famous (though as a biathlete, still not well known).

Some silly examples where trans athletes are forced to compete as their birth ***, such as wrestler Mack Beggs in Texas. He went through several seasons undefeated, wrestling against women.

[BigFatPie]

How can you claim to stand for women's rights if you can't even define what a woman is? Labour try to stand on that claim but it rings hollow when you ask them to define what they mean.

It might be better to judge a politician’s attitude to women’s rights by their actions rather than words.

[PedroTheFisherman66]

How can you claim to stand for women's rights if you can't even define what a woman is? Labour try to stand on that claim but it rings hollow when you ask them to define what they mean.

So you think the Tories would stand for women's rights more than labour or pretend to care and use this debate as a tactic to trip them up..?
To be honest I'm more concerned about energy costs and the lack of a plan, except the one just written on the back of a fag packet in haste.
BREXIT and its epic failure.
The Pandemic and the way it was poorly handled with sub topics such as ring fencing care homes NOT!
PPE contracts for friends
Track and trace failures
Fraudulent claims costing taxpayers billions.
The way the economy is crumbling due to lack of investment and poor planning.
Taxing the workers to pay for social care.
These are a few things amongst many , whether a man who had a dick but now doesnt but defines himself as a woman is very low down on the list of importance and for main stream news to focus on this as opposed to reducing fuel costs is bordering lunacy and better still the general public picking I the baton on this and running with it...
Smoke and mirrors...
I'm surprised the next headline isn't Kier wants to become a woman and is commencing the transformation on the queens jubilee day shock horror !!

[BanjoPie]

So you think the Tories would stand for women's rights more than labour or pretend to care and use this debate as a tactic to trip them up..?
To be honest I'm more concerned about energy costs and the lack of a plan, except the one just written on the back of a fag packet in haste.
BREXIT and its epic failure.
The Pandemic and the way it was poorly handled with sub topics such as ring fencing care homes NOT!
PPE contracts for friends
Track and trace failures
Fraudulent claims costing taxpayers billions.
The way the economy is crumbling due to lack of investment and poor planning.
Taxing the workers to pay for social care.
These are a few things amongst many , whether a man who had a dick but now doesnt but defines himself as a woman is very low down on the list of importance and for main stream news to focus on this as opposed to reducing fuel costs is bordering lunacy and better still the general public picking I the baton on this and running with it...
Smoke and mirrors...
I'm surprised the next headline isn't Kier wants to become a woman and is commencing the transformation on the queens jubilee day shock horror !!

He just wants to get noticed bless him