Carsley’s England?

[Omegstrat6]

If it were a refusal to wear the poppy in the way that James McLean does then that would be totally unacceptable but this is completely different.

Why should anyone swear allegiance to a king or queen if they donÂ’t believe in royalty?

ItÂ’s the same with religion, I refuse to say The Lords Prayer even though I was born C of E as IÂ’m a non believer, I stand respectfully at a funeral or church service with my head bowed paying my own personal homage to the departed or to those being wedded.

I was at a relativeÂ’s JehovahÂ’s Witness funeral earlier this year and stood motionless with head bowed during singing and prayers.

You can remain respectful in ANY of these types of circumstances as IÂ’m sure Carsley will.

I admire him for not being a fraud and being honest and true.

IÂ’ll admire him even more when he drops Kane to the bench and starts playing someone who can actually run and beat a man.

Tin hat time maybe Mick, but I'm going to defend McClean regarding his stance on the poppy shirt thing. Though born in 89, his home town is Derry and (as various recent documentaries have shown) the area still bares the scars of the Troubles. Six of the men shot by members of I Para during Bloody Sunday came from the estate he grew up on so, perhaps understandably, he has little time for those members of the British Army who were either involved directly or else assisted the cover up. (That the men were unlawfully killed seems pretty clear now and when I took our youngest to Duxford the other week I noticed that the room devoted to the parachute regiment has now amended that part of its history to acknowledge this. Given their bravery and service in so many other theatres, Bloody Sunday remains a stain on the regiment's history.)

McLean has made his position on this matter clear several times now. Basically, the British Legion support all veterans with the poppy sales and McClean has stated that he had no problem with those who served in the Great War or the Second World War (many of whom were Irish) nor those who served in some subsequent conflicts but his issue is with those who served in Ireland during the Troubles. This is not at all to say that he supported the IRA or terrorism but just that he doesn't feel he can commemorate those who served in the British Army over there during this time.

Without going down the rabbit hole of discussing the causes or rights and wrongs by any parties involved in the Troubles, I can understand his point of view. If Carsley is to be admired for being honest and standing up for his principles in refusing to sing the national anthem because of the overt allegiance in it to the Royal Family or whatever, surely McClean is entitled to the same?

[Albionic68]

Carsley has gone on record to say he respects both the Irish and our national anthem but he's never sung either before games because he's too busy concentrating on what's to come.

This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with taking a stance as was the case with McLean.

As for Spanish flags flying everywhere in Barcelona while it's a long time since I've been there from memory the only flags I saw back then were the various regional Catalonian flags.

[baggieal]

Tin hat time maybe Mick, but I'm going to defend McClean regarding his stance on the poppy shirt thing. Though born in 89, his home town is Derry and (as various recent documentaries have shown) the area still bares the scars of the Troubles. Six of the men shot by members of I Para during Bloody Sunday came from the estate he grew up on so, perhaps understandably, he has little time for those members of the British Army who were either involved directly or else assisted the cover up. (That the men were unlawfully killed seems pretty clear now and when I took our youngest to Duxford the other week I noticed that the room devoted to the parachute regiment has now amended that part of its history to acknowledge this. Given their bravery and service in so many other theatres, Bloody Sunday remains a stain on the regiment's history.)

McLean has made his position on this matter clear several times now. Basically, the British Legion support all veterans with the poppy sales and McClean has stated that he had no problem with those who served in the Great War or the Second World War (many of whom were Irish) nor those who served in some subsequent conflicts but his issue is with those who served in Ireland during the Troubles. This is not at all to say that he supported the IRA or terrorism but just that he doesn't feel he can commemorate those who served in the British Army over there during this time.

Without going down the rabbit hole of discussing the causes or rights and wrongs by any parties involved in the Troubles, I can understand his point of view. If Carsley is to be admired for being honest and standing up for his principles in refusing to sing the national anthem because of the overt allegiance in it to the Royal Family or whatever, surely McClean is entitled to the same?

The poppy I get! I was in the USA for the friendly though and McClean disrespected our National Anthem by his body language and looking in a specific direction. All he needed to have done was bowed his head and looked at the floor. Respect to others!

[baggieal]

Carsley has gone on record to say he respects both the Irish and our national anthem but he's never sung either before games because he's too busy concentrating on what's to come.

This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with taking a stance as was the case with McLean.

As for Spanish flags flying everywhere in Barcelona while it's a long time since I've been there from memory the only flags I saw back then were the various regional Catalonian flags.

There were mostly two flags flying side by side ie the Spanish flag and the Catalan one. Even two police stations side by side - Spanish and Catalan. There will never be independence just like there won’t with the Jocks!

[mickd1961]

Tin hat time maybe Mick, but I'm going to defend McClean regarding his stance on the poppy shirt thing. Though born in 89, his home town is Derry and (as various recent documentaries have shown) the area still bares the scars of the Troubles. Six of the men shot by members of I Para during Bloody Sunday came from the estate he grew up on so, perhaps understandably, he has little time for those members of the British Army who were either involved directly or else assisted the cover up. (That the men were unlawfully killed seems pretty clear now and when I took our youngest to Duxford the other week I noticed that the room devoted to the parachute regiment has now amended that part of its history to acknowledge this. Given their bravery and service in so many other theatres, Bloody Sunday remains a stain on the regiment's history.)

McLean has made his position on this matter clear several times now. Basically, the British Legion support all veterans with the poppy sales and McClean has stated that he had no problem with those who served in the Great War or the Second World War (many of whom were Irish) nor those who served in some subsequent conflicts but his issue is with those who served in Ireland during the Troubles. This is not at all to say that he supported the IRA or terrorism but just that he doesn't feel he can commemorate those who served in the British Army over there during this time.

Without going down the rabbit hole of discussing the causes or rights and wrongs by any parties involved in the Troubles, I can understand his point of view. If Carsley is to be admired for being honest and standing up for his principles in refusing to sing the national anthem because of the overt allegiance in it to the Royal Family or whatever, surely McClean is entitled to the same?

I didn’t explain myself well enough in regards to McLean Omeg.

I have no problem with his stance to the poppy.

We are all products of our upbringing, he is no different to the rest of us and he has the right not to wear the poppy.

What I meant to say was that it would make someone like him, of these beliefs, a non starter to manage the England team.

Not singing along to the mumbling cnut’s anthem is not a big deal in my eyes whereas not wearing the poppy would be for an England manager.

[baggiematt]

I do think we ought to move with the times on this sort of issue. If someone wants to belt it out at the top of their voice, fine. If someone wants to not sing it, fine. No one's hurt, it's not disrespect and it makes you no less English.

[mickd1961]

I do think we ought to move with the times on this sort of issue. If someone wants to belt it out at the top of their voice, fine. If someone wants to not sing it, fine. No one's hurt, it's not disrespect and it makes you no less English.

Anything is better than watching this sort of fraud!

https://youtu.be/WFP5MjUuzsg?si=TF-kf_IWHZCkp_CD

[Omegstrat6]

I stand corrected by 68 on Carsley's reason for not singing the national anthem (though I personally find it a bit strange ) but would, however, understand if a manager of an England team who was not English themselves did not join in.

I do have sympathy for baggiematt's point of view but the singing of the national anthem is a traditional part of international games and a mark of pride and respect. You can surely disagree with decisions a government makes on behalf of your country but still have pride and respect for its culture so why not sing it (even if you have a c rap singing voice &#128513 if you are playing to represent your country?

The only reason for not singing it perhaps, as Mick and others have pointed out, is that our own national anthem is so obviously entwined with supporting the Royal family and you do not have to believe in the concept of monarchy to have pride/respect for your country. The song was composed in 1745 apparently by the band leader of the Theatre Royal in Dury Lane as a patriotic response to the threat of Prince Charles Edward Stuart (the Young Pretender)who had just defeated the army of George II near Edinburgh. This fit of patriotism spread (even though the King, of course, was of born in Hanover and of German descent!) and the anthem was taken up by others. By the early 1800s it had become the country's national anthem, used especially to greet the monarch and it's style fitted in well with the coming culture of empire and all the pomp and praise of monarchy that went with it.

As for baggieAl's comment about flags, I think it is a good thing that Starmer, for example, has gone out of his way to be seen with the Union Jack behind him wherever possible but a great shame that the English Cross of St. George (though derived from a Christian martyr who was neither a knight nor British) now has popular connotations with the Far Right. The flags of the red cross on white field that I do see (outside of when we stumble into the closing stages of a World Cup&#128513 are generally only flown in the properties of patriotic veterans but it's a pity that many who might otherwise fly them do not do so because of its appropriation by the racist far right. How we get it back, I don't know.

Like every country, the UK has been led to do things that we should not be proud of but over all I believe that there is much to celebrate in our culture and history. The Union Jack not only represents the country but should also be a symbol of its unity and inclusiveness -the reasons, I am sure, that Starmer is so keen to be seen with it.

[Omegstrat6]

Anything is better than watching this sort of fraud!


https://youtu.be/WFP5MjUuzsg?si=TF-kf_IWHZCkp_CD

Funny!😂😂😂
Did Rowan Atkinson pinch his Mr Bean character from this or was Redwood imitating Mr Bean?

[Albionic68]

........Like every country, the UK has been led to do things that we should not be proud of but over all I believe that there is much to celebrate in our culture and history. The Union Jack not only represents the country but should also be a symbol of its unity and inclusiveness -the reasons, I am sure, that Starmer is so keen to be seen with it.

Well whatever he does I suggest Starmer doesn't wrap a symbol of unity and inclusiveness otherwise known as a Union Jack around his shoulders on any upcoming state visits to the Republic of Ireland where it's still referred to as the Butcher's Apron 😉.