Prisoners party and Labour vote for cuting the winter fuel payment

[greyhound]

I've read somewhere that 25% of pensioners are millionaires. Its probably taking into account property, but still. We're giving millionaires £300 to heat their house. Is this fair?

For what its worth, I completely agree with removing the WFA from pensioners. Who are getting a huge uplift in their pensions anyway from next year.

Out of everyone who has suffered financially, pensioners have been hit the least hardest. Its time they share the burden with everyone else.

I'm on a state pension,£880 a month.If I don't spend any of that pension,and save it for 94 years,then I,too,will be a millionaire

[baggieal]

I'm on a state pension,£880 a month.If I don't spend any of that pension,and save it for 94 years,then I,too,will be a millionaire

That’s the problem! It’s the pensioners who are struggling who are always hit which is disgusting!

Why is money wasted with free prescriptions for those over 60 who can financially afford to pay the cost? Surely many pensioners who retire and are financially well off - why do they need a state pension? Rather than keep increasing the pension age ( soon will be 70 ) it would be better to means test state pensions! I know someone who has a huge private works pension ( six figures ) but still collects his state pension! The greedy t wat does not need it!

[mickd1961]

You are correct in that the big issue is that politicians don't think about future generations, they think very short term - like the 3-4 years until the next election. I don't really know how to rectify that. The people who have benefited mostly from that are current pensioners btw, and the ones who have lost out are our children and future grandchildren / great grandchildren.

Surely you must give some credit to Labour for GB Energy? Of course we don't know how it will play out at the moment, but if we can start being less dependant on foreign energy sources that would be a great help to future generations.

Yes agreed, the short termism is extremely frustrating.

Perhaps the best idea would be to have a national infrastructure strategy that is agreed by the main three parties in the U.K. and including the SNP and Plaid.

Like the agreed amount paid in Foreign Aid and the approximate amount given to defence spending, perhaps the infrastructure plan and % of GDP should be set in stone as a minimum amount and the plans for building roads, rail and all of the other important stuff so that it became non political?

I agree about GB Energy, we should also have a national bank that competes with the majors and a whole host of other national institutions but only if run properly by people from outside the political and Civil Service sphere.

One thought on the younger generation who you continuously say have been robbed.

If your parents and you yourself pass down your wealth during your living years to your children and grandchildren to aid them with education and to help them as young and medium term adults they are not robbed.

Kids are only robbed by elders who are too tight to help their own, that I find abhorrent.

[Omegstrat6]

On the subject of early released prisoners, I met one today and what he told me just confirmed a lot of what I'd gathered already and furthered my belief that the whole justice/penal system is broken. No surprise I know given that most public services are f ucked whether that be the NHS, social services, education, policing, social housing, public transport, state pension system etc. etc.The list seems endless and -as others have said-we need a complete over haul of them now because they simply are not fit for purpose given the size of the current population and the ratio of funding available to them as it stands.

Anyhow, back on topic! I've long thought that we lock away far too many and that only those who pose a risk to the public should really be incarcerated (,and made to do work to help pay for their time inside).

The system fails so many, either because it doesn't do enough to reform/rehabilitate when they are inside or else because of the lack of support once released (no place to live, no job opportunities) which means that they simply repeat offend and the cycle doesn't get broken. I know that there is a whole spectrum of reasons why people get locked up and this is certainly not applicable to all, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Anyway, this fella was 60 (though he looked older), a bit shabby and pasty looking but quite personable. He told me that he had just been released after 6 months ("nothing serious" he says though, of course, it was obviously serious enough for him to be given a prison sentence) and that he was expecting to be released within a month or so anyway but that this new government initiative just brought it forward.

He said he had just spent a few hours walking around the city and "enjoying his freedom" but that he was now a bit knackered as he obviously didn't get much chance to exercise in prison plus he also suffers from crohn's disease. Because of his disability, he was fortunate enough to have a cell to himself. He said that he was quite comfortable in as much that he had his own colour tv and the food was good. However (due , he was sure, to low staffing levels) he mostly spent 23 hours a day locked in his cell. On the other hand, there was definitely favouritism as a few cliques of prisoners who were part of the same gangs seemed to always get privileges such as socialising or exercising together without having earnt them. Some of these gang members were also in for violent crimes and drugs. Bribes/corruption? He didn't know.

As for any opportunities to learn a trade or rehabilitation courses, he just laughed. You read that they are available but they clearly weren't in his experience. He also said that he was a bit surprised how quickly prison can institutionalise someone and that when he actually walked out of the door and the female screw patted him on the shoulder and told him that she didn't want to see him in there again, he felt both a mixture of excitement at being released and almost a fear of the unknown and of leaving somewhere he felt safe.

He told me that he was lucky because he had some family to support him and somewhere to live, but many didnt. One guy he knew had mental health issues and was battling alcoholism and, with nowhere to live, often slept rough but come winter he would do something to get himself locked up again for a warm bed and something to eat. The coppers were sympathetic to him but didn't really want to see him back in Nick so he had to try to aggravate them further which he did by smashing in the window of a police car.

A few times during our conversation he stopped himself and apologised for holding me up, but he was obviously pleased to be out and meeting people and grateful for a chat. I don't know what this fella had done to get 6 months but he certainly didn't come across as much of a threat to anyone and I have a feeling that a percentage of people end up in the system because they are vulnerable in some way.

Given the fantastically high cost of keeping people in prison, surely it is better to find an alternative to try and support such individuals where possible? As for the others who have committed serious crimes, then what is wrong in taking a leaf out of the American system and making them work in order to earn privileges and help pay towards the cost of their incarceration?

I'm sure that there will be some individuals released early under this new scheme who I would feel differently about but very clearly there is not the space in our prisons to accommodate all those that truly deserve locking up and so IMHO Labour seem to be making the right, if reluctant, choice given the present circumstances.

[mickd1961]

On the subject of early released prisoners, I met one today and what he told me just confirmed a lot of what I'd gathered already and furthered my belief that the whole justice/penal system is broken. No surprise I know given that most public services are f ucked whether that be the NHS, social services, education, policing, social housing, public transport, state pension system etc. etc.The list seems endless and -as others have said-we need a complete over haul of them now because they simply are not fit for purpose given the size of the current population and the ratio of funding available to them as it stands.

Anyhow, back on topic! I've long thought that we lock away far too many and that only those who pose a risk to the public should really be incarcerated (,and made to do work to help pay for their time inside).

The system fails so many, either because it doesn't do enough to reform/rehabilitate when they are inside or else because of the lack of support once released (no place to live, no job opportunities) which means that they simply repeat offend and the cycle doesn't get broken. I know that there is a whole spectrum of reasons why people get locked up and this is certainly not applicable to all, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Anyway, this fella was 60 (though he looked older), a bit shabby and pasty looking but quite personable. He told me that he had just been released after 6 months ("nothing serious" he says though, of course, it was obviously serious enough for him to be given a prison sentence) and that he was expecting to be released within a month or so anyway but that this new government initiative just brought it forward.

He said he had just spent a few hours walking around the city and "enjoying his freedom" but that he was now a bit knackered as he obviously didn't get much chance to exercise in prison plus he also suffers from crohn's disease. Because of his disability, he was fortunate enough to have a cell to himself. He said that he was quite comfortable in as much that he had his own colour tv and the food was good. However (due , he was sure, to low staffing levels) he mostly spent 23 hours a day locked in his cell. On the other hand, there was definitely favouritism as a few cliques of prisoners who were part of the same gangs seemed to always get privileges such as socialising or exercising together without having earnt them. Some of these gang members were also in for violent crimes and drugs. Bribes/corruption? He didn't know.

As for any opportunities to learn a trade or rehabilitation courses, he just laughed. You read that they are available but they clearly weren't in his experience. He also said that he was a bit surprised how quickly prison can institutionalise someone and that when he actually walked out of the door and the female screw patted him on the shoulder and told him that she didn't want to see him in there again, he felt both a mixture of excitement at being released and almost a fear of the unknown and of leaving somewhere he felt safe.

He told me that he was lucky because he had some family to support him and somewhere to live, but many didnt. One guy he knew had mental health issues and was battling alcoholism and, with nowhere to live, often slept rough but come winter he would do something to get himself locked up again for a warm bed and something to eat. The coppers were sympathetic to him but didn't really want to see him back in Nick so he had to try to aggravate them further which he did by smashing in the window of a police car.

A few times during our conversation he stopped himself and apologised for holding me up, but he was obviously pleased to be out and meeting people and grateful for a chat. I don't know what this fella had done to get 6 months but he certainly didn't come across as much of a threat to anyone and I have a feeling that a percentage of people end up in the system because they are vulnerable in some way.

Given the fantastically high cost of keeping people in prison, surely it is better to find an alternative to try and support such individuals where possible? As for the others who have committed serious crimes, then what is wrong in taking a leaf out of the American system and making them work in order to earn privileges and help pay towards the cost of their incarceration?

I'm sure that there will be some individuals released early under this new scheme who I would feel differently about but very clearly there is not the space in our prisons to accommodate all those that truly deserve locking up and so IMHO Labour seem to be making the right, if reluctant, choice given the present circumstances.

It’s for others to judge the seriousness of his crime Omeg, a narcissist or sociopath have no conscience so any crime they commit they wouldn’t recognise the seriousness.

The fact he wouldn’t tell you what he was in for says a lot I think.

However I do agree with much of what you say.

I had a neighbour at my last address who was an accountant who was involved in a £6.5m vat fraud involving a West Midlands company, he got a six and a half year jail sentence and did three and a half years inside.

He was a lovely bloke and as a 50 something family man he presented no threat to anyone, particularly as he’d been struck off as an accountant.

He spent his time inside writing letters for illiterate inmates and teaching them to read and write.

His incarceration was a waste of our money though, he should’ve been channelled into unpaid charity work on the outside, he was the perfect candidate for something of that ilk.

[boingy]

It’s for others to judge the seriousness of his crime Omeg, a narcissist or sociopath have no conscience so any crime they commit they wouldn’t recognise the seriousness.

The fact he wouldn’t tell you what he was in for says a lot I think.

However I do agree with much of what you say.

I had a neighbour at my last address who was an accountant who was involved in a £6.5m vat fraud involving a West Midlands company, he got a six and a half year jail sentence and did three and a half years inside.

He was a lovely bloke and as a 50 something family man he presented no threat to anyone, particularly as he’d been struck off as an accountant.

He spent his time inside writing letters for illiterate inmates and teaching them to read and write.

His incarceration was a waste of our money though, he should’ve been channelled into unpaid charity work on the outside, he was the perfect candidate for something of that ilk.

Mick there will be a lot of prisoners similar to the example you state. Some sentences have been too long for some cases and way too short for others. No threat, release if they’ve served enough time already. (Not like a week but years). Prisons take a long time to build. (3 years) We could do with a dozen. Nobody wants a Prison near them so locations can be tricky to find excluding the ones that were there already of course. No foresight. You can’t have a rising population like ours and keep anything the same.

[WBA123]

Yes agreed, the short termism is extremely frustrating.

Perhaps the best idea would be to have a national infrastructure strategy that is agreed by the main three parties in the U.K. and including the SNP and Plaid.

Like the agreed amount paid in Foreign Aid and the approximate amount given to defence spending, perhaps the infrastructure plan and % of GDP should be set in stone as a minimum amount and the plans for building roads, rail and all of the other important stuff so that it became non political?

I agree about GB Energy, we should also have a national bank that competes with the majors and a whole host of other national institutions but only if run properly by people from outside the political and Civil Service sphere.

One thought on the younger generation who you continuously say have been robbed.

If your parents and you yourself pass down your wealth during your living years to your children and grandchildren to aid them with education and to help them as young and medium term adults they are not robbed.

Kids are only robbed by elders who are too tight to help their own, that I find abhorrent.

I think the cross party structure is a good idea and could work for other industries too.

But your perspective on elder generations being able to support younger ones is a bit more complex. You have inheritance tax for the reasonably wealthy. You have some people who inherit nothing because their parents had nothing or they went into care. And you have some parents who are just not bothered in supporting their offspring.

It would be better if kids were just given a fairer chance. Don't forget that the Tories voted against free school meals during Covid - that was a lot worse than removing the WFA in my view. The over 60s have benefited greatly from triple lock mortgages, free bus passes, free prescriptions etc. and some of them are multi millionaires and don't need it. A lot of this was because this demographic were more likely to vote Tory.

In reality, financial incentives should be provided for services for the under 25s. Support to go to college could be the difference between a life on the dole or a life in work for a current 17 year old for example. More workshops for young people to get into work, greater investments into failing schools. These are the kind of things that should have been prioritised.

[baggieal]

I think the cross party structure is a good idea and could work for other industries too.

But your perspective on elder generations being able to support younger ones is a bit more complex. You have inheritance tax for the reasonably wealthy. You have some people who inherit nothing because their parents had nothing or they went into care. And you have some parents who are just not bothered in supporting their offspring.

It would be better if kids were just given a fairer chance. Don't forget that the Tories voted against free school meals during Covid - that was a lot worse than removing the WFA in my view. The over 60s have benefited greatly from triple lock mortgages, free bus passes, free prescriptions etc. and some of them are multi millionaires and don't need it. A lot of this was because this demographic were more likely to vote Tory.

In reality, financial incentives should be provided for services for the under 25s. Support to go to college could be the difference between a life on the dole or a life in work for a current 17 year old for example. More workshops for young people to get into work, greater investments into failing schools. These are the kind of things that should have been prioritised.

Totally agree with you! I question whether those financially comfortable should receive state pensions. Free prescriptions for the over 60’s when many are financially comfortable is an embarrassment and a waste of money.

More workshops for younger people - more incentives - free university places like in Scotland - more apprenticeships and more help to get on the housing ladder. The younger generation have it so much harder than the 80’s when it was easy to get on the housing ladder with affordable prices v the then salaries plus free university places to enjoy a career. I would hate to be young now with mental health issues and the unstable world we live in! Pity the older generation ruined life for our youngsters by voting Brexit and the opportunities of working and living in Europe!

[baggiematt]

I read the other day that the cut of winter fuel payments is due to save £1b. But there are a lot of elderly people that don’t claim pension credit and there is more than £1b unallocated. So in theory, Labour have absolutely no idea how much this initiative will save.

It’s one of the most bizarre and unthought out policies. I understand means testing but was £13k really a fair start point? You can’t easily live on £13k these days. If they’d started at £20k, this wouldn’t even be a story.

The notion that pensioners keep their triple lock and so it’s only fair is absolute b*ll*cks. The elderly cannot go out to work and there must be a level of money for them to survive which should mirror inflation - otherwise they are naturally falling into poverty with no way out.

[soulman101]

My wife is 66 today and will recieve her pension and bus pass .
When we was courting ,I used to say that she would be a pensioner 3months before me , as she would have had it at 60s .
Still we are gratefull to both reach pension age , alot of our old friends never made it .