Reform UK Party Conference

[mickd1961]

Your last sentence exactly! I'm far from qualified in politics but am interested enough to read around various aspects of it.

The thing that really p issed me off about the whole Brexit debate was that-there was no debate. Well, certainly no proper debate just gain saying, scare-mongering, unfounded claims and counter claims and outright lies from both sides. It must have been obvious to anyone that bothered to look deeper that the complexities of Brexit threw up so many concerns-exactly how long would the multitude of new trade agreements take to get done, the Irish border issue, what was real the likelihood of negotiating favourable new deals with Australia, the US etc, what would the impact be of losing so many EU workers on key sectors or how would the EU's reaction impact on the economy. Yet none of these got properly addressed and the right wing press, stirred by the populism of Farage, got it over the line.

That the EU was/is far from perfect is inarguably and certainly not all those who voted for Brexit were un-thoughtful in their choice by any means nor were they ignorant racists whose xenophobia lumped all immigrants together but I think Al is right in thinking that it was the latter that got Brexit done.

What really then angered me was that once some of the issues started to be talked about and more started to have second thoughts and called for a second referendum, the leading Brexiteers like Nige shouted them down saying that the "country had spoken" and that a Second vote would be "undemocratic".

Think about that for a moment. The country has just voted on quite a momentous issue. That vote was democratic and legitimate. But wait, new (or rather old) information has come to light that should make for a more informed decision. It's not too late, so why not have further discussion and a second vote? The outcome could still go either way. Surely, with such an important matter it would be worth a small delay to get a more informed outcome? But no. For me this simply smacked of those leaders of Brexit simply being fearful of it being overturned.

I know it's an extreme but using the analogy of a 50s murder trial a jury has decided an individual is guilty and he is scheduled to hang. If subsequent information came to light that might have him proven innocent would you have a re-trial or ignore it and go ahead and hang him?

Cameron never wanted to actually leave the EU, but he was weak. Too weak to get concessions from the EU and too weak not to appease the right wing "Cornerstone" element of his party that included such luminaries as John Redwood, Nadine Dorries and Steve Baker (later to be known as the "hard man of Brexit").

Your last paragraph nails it for me Omeg and it’s expat I’ve said since 2015.

Cameron was weak and was made to look an idiot, do you remember how he got blanked by French President Nicholas Sarkosy at that Eu summit when he went to beg for concessions?

He put out his hand to offer a handshake and Sarkosy pretended he hadn’t seen him and turned his back on him which left Cameron looking like a fool.

If he’d done that to Thatcher she’d have jabbed him sharply in the back and then cussed him out.

The arrogance and lack of understanding by the main Eu players was breathtaking.

The main thing that was needed was a tweak to the “free movement” part of the Eu to allow some limitations on incoming numbers based on the land mass of each country for example.

Even the Germans are now putting in measures to try and keep immigrants out.

It’s becoming an “everybody” problem rather than just a “UK” problem.

[mickd1961]

We are worse off 100%. Exporting products is a nightmare and expensive. Who wants to invest in this s hit tip of a country?

Even from a people perspective - the best years of my life were opportunities to work in Spain. This is now denied to all youngsters and even with our pensioners - very difficult now to buy and retire in the EU.

I have a mate who lives in Spain so his state pension on the U.K. side will be pittance whereas on the Spanish side it will be over 3K a month before tax.

Just been to Barcelona - everything over there was about half the price of this country and the place was clean too.

The average State Pension in Spain is around 900 Euros per month.

Was your mate a barista?

[baggieal]

Let’s be truthful - Brexit would not have happened if bigoted people mainly the elderly had not been sucked into the immigration mantra. EU immigration was never the issue but many were too thick to distinguish between EU and non EU which was the problem and still is.

Most likely though people who hated the Tories and voted Labour are moaning like f uck now at Starmer and the gang!

The average State Pension in Spain is around 900 Euros per month.

Was your mate a barista?

Read the fkin comment before googling and as I lived in Spain for many years and had a Spanish contract so I know what I’m talking about. Who said anything about an average pension?

Their pensions system is financed by a payroll tax on salaries. The employee pays 4.7% of their salary while employers must pay the equivalent of 23.6% of an employee's salary into the scheme. So it all depends what is paid in to the system!

No my mate is a councillor so always helping those who needs their heads wobbled 😭

[mickd1961]

Read the fkin comment before googling and as I lived in Spain for many years and had a Spanish contract so I know what I’m talking about. Who said anything about an average pension?

Their pensions system is financed by a payroll tax on salaries. The employee pays 4.7% of their salary while employers must pay the equivalent of 23.6% of an employee's salary into the scheme. So it all depends what is paid in to the system!

No my mate is a councillor so always helping those who needs their heads wobbled 😭

I did read the fkin comment properly, you said your mates State Pension was £3k a month suggesting that’s what it was for everyone.

It’s no real difference to this country apart from the ratio of % paid in by individuals and companies.

If someone is enrolled in NEST an employer has to match whatever the employee chooses to pay in each month.

The Spanish system does appear on your figures to be a much more enticing deal.

[baggieal]

Let’s be truthful - Brexit would not have happened if bigoted people mainly the elderly had not been sucked into the immigration mantra. EU immigration was never the issue but many were too thick to distinguish between EU and non EU which was the problem and still is.

Most likely though people who hated the Tories and voted Labour are moaning like f uck now at Starmer and the gang!

I did read the fkin comment properly, you said your mates State Pension was £3k a month suggesting that’s what it was for everyone.

It’s no real difference to this country apart from the ratio of % paid in by individuals and companies.

If someone is enrolled in NEST an employer has to match whatever the employee chooses to pay in each month.

The Spanish system does appear on your figures to be a much more enticing deal.

It did not suggest anything so why did you jump and come out with an average? His state pension will be as I said it was and your second paragraph is bollox in that there’s no real difference. Of course there’s a fkin difference if the pension is based on what an employee earns and how much therefore the employer must contribute. This is not rocket science to understand but yes the average might be 11,000 per year but who was talking about averages. He’s not a street cleaner for f uck sake!

[mickd1961]

It did not suggest anything so why did you jump and come out with an average? His state pension will be as I said it was and your second paragraph is bollox in that there’s no real difference. Of course there’s a fkin difference if the pension is based on what an employee earns and how much therefore the employer must contribute. This is not rocket science to understand but yes the average might be 11,000 per year but who was talking about averages. He’s not a street cleaner for f uck sake!

You read your own post again.

It’s you that stated “his State Pension would be a pittance on the UK side” and that “In Spain he’s getting £3k a month before tax”.

So by definition your stating he’s getting a huge amount more State Pension in Spain than he is in the U.K.?

Is that right or is it wrong?

[baggieal]

You read your own post again.

It’s you that stated “his State Pension would be a pittance on the UK side” and that “In Spain he’s getting £3k a month before tax”.

So by definition your stating he’s getting a huge amount more State Pension in Spain than he is in the U.K.?

Is that right or is it wrong?

Yes because of the reasoning I gave you on the way the Spanish system works. You went on about the average Spanish state pension but that had f uck all to do with it!

Think I know far more about Spain and their systems than you - I had a Spanish contract and was employed by a Spanish company as well as living there for many years.

Admittedly I know very little about the ins and outs of Tenby but hey - I don’t say I do!

[mickd1961]

Yes because of the reasoning I gave you on the way the Spanish system works. You went on about the average Spanish state pension but that had f uck all to do with it!

Think I know far more about Spain and their systems than you - I had a Spanish contract and was employed by a Spanish company as well as living there for many years.

Admittedly I know very little about the ins and outs of Tenby but hey - I don’t say I do!

I’m trying to understand the point of whatever point it is you’re trying to make?

Are you saying the Spanish State Pension is better than the U.K. State Pension?

I don’t see the relevance of whatever pension amount it is that your mate gets, you’re not explaining it very well, maybe someone else can enlighten me as to the point I’m obviously missing?

[baggieal]

I’m trying to understand the point of whatever point it is you’re trying to make?

Are you saying the Spanish State Pension is better than the U.K. State Pension?

I don’t see the relevance of whatever pension amount it is that your mate gets, you’re not explaining it very well, maybe someone else can enlighten me as to the point I’m obviously missing?

I can draw you a picture🤯

The maximum state pension is 3500 euros but you have to earn a high salary so a Spanish company has to pay a lot of NI contributions. There’s also 14 payments so one extra in July and at Christmas.

The average may be the average but who mentioned average.

[kettering_baggie]

I’m not convinced about moving to Spain, I would prefer Italy. I’ll probably stay where I am, though.

It’s an ill wind.