O/t - Church of England

[howdydoo]

Don't forget the Catholics. My wife attended a Catholic primary school in Rotherham and the treatment she describes receiving from one teacher in particular borders on sadistic.

Poor lass hasn’t had much luck in life, by the looks of it.

[mellowmiller]

Religious groups have certainly used their influence and impression of 'moral authority' to silence victims and their families.

My point was aimed more at the notion that religion is a cause of child ***ual abuse. From my professional experience in the subject, it isn't.

It's very much the case that abuse happens when adults have access to children. That's certainly true of churches and temples etc., but it's also true of schools, youth clubs, the Scouts, care homes etc., and, particularly sadly, the home.

Nobody has said that religion per se is the cause of abuse but religious institutions certainly provide the opportunity and cover for it to happen on an apparently significant scale.
I'm hoping that some investigative journalists will get their teeth into this and expose the scale of the scandal.

[KerrAvon]

Nobody has said that religion per se is the cause of abuse but religious institutions certainly provide the opportunity and cover for it to happen on an apparently significant scale.
I'm hoping that some investigative journalists will get their teeth into this and expose the scale of the scandal.

Smyth's activities were made public after an investigation by journalists from Channel 4. That prompted the investigation commissioned by the Church of England, the outcome of which caused Welby to resign.

[mygiddypant]

Smyth's activities were made public after an investigation by journalists from Channel 4. That prompted the investigation commissioned by the Church of England, the outcome of which caused Welby to resign.

In a sense you're right, but the publication of the report was delayed on 15 occasions. Whether it was publication of the report or a combination of lack of support from the bishops or public opinion, is arguable.

[mellowmiller]

Smyth's activities were made public after an investigation by journalists from Channel 4. That prompted the investigation commissioned by the Church of England, the outcome of which caused Welby to resign.

And? Do you think that was the end of it?
It seems more likely that was when the cover up went into overdrive.
Anyway, it looks as though things are starting to move a bit more rapidly now with 30 more bishops under pressure to resign.
Hopefully a lot more victims will be brave enough to come forward to blow the lid off the scale of the abuse that some are claiming is still going on right now.

[KerrAvon]

And? Do you think that was the end of it?
It seems more likely that was when the cover up went into overdrive.
Anyway, it looks as though things are starting to move a bit more rapidly now with 30 more bishops under pressure to resign.
Hopefully a lot more victims will be brave enough to come forward to blow the lid off the scale of the abuse that some are claiming is still going on right now.

I don’t think anyone has to claim that abuse is still going on within the Church of England. As I have said many times before and will doubtless say again, it occurs wherever adults come into contact with children. On that basis I think it inevitable that it is still going on within just about every organisation or area of activity where that happens and so it should be assumed that it is.

In respect of the CoE, we have the Independent Inquiry into Child ***ual Abuse (IICSA) report in 2020 in which we were told that there was abuse going on within the COE and that the church had frequently put the protection of its reputation over safeguarding:

https://www.iicsa.org.uk/reports-rec...an-church.html

Many victims came forward to IICSA in relation to the CoE and other modules. I know this for professional reasons.

We have also had the specific cases of Smyth, which Channel 4 blew the lid off and the subsequent independent Makin Report, which confirmed that his abuse had been known about and not acted upon by people including Welby:

https://www.churchofengland.org/site...ember-2024.pdf

In the past we have also specific and similar revelations about Bishop Peter Ball.

With the above in mind, I have two points:

1. What are investigative journalists going to tell us that we don’t already know?
2. Why would such journalists spend their time breaking a story that has already been broken?

That leads into my further overreaching point, which is instead of simply seeking a retelling of the story and a further fix of outrage, why don’t we press for something to be done about it? The starting point would be a duty of candour – a legal obligation upon bodies such as churches and the office holders within them to make reports to the police. I am making no comment upon the extent of Welby’s knowledge, because I have only skim read the Makin Report, but the point is that even if he had full knowledge of Smyth’s conduct and did nothing, he carries no criminal liability under English law as it stands.

[UlleyMiller]

As I have said many times before and will doubtless say again, it occurs wherever adults come into contact with children.

I highly doubt that secular schools (as an environment where adults routinely encounter children) have anything like the amount of prolific abusers as religious organisations. I also doubt that, in general, the extremity of the individual cases are as vile, continuous, or destructive.

I'd also doubt that schools or academy groups, in general, would apply anything like the amount of effort religious organisations will to conceal, or protect the perpetrator, once cases are uncovered.

In my lifetime, I'd wager the same logic applies to childrens wards in hospitals, youth organisations such as scouts/girl guides, and organised sport.

[KerrAvon]

I highly doubt that secular schools (as an environment where adults routinely encounter children) have anything like the amount of prolific abusers as religious organisations. I also doubt that, in general, the extremity of the individual cases are as vile, continuous, or destructive.

I'd also doubt that schools or academy groups, in general, would apply anything like the amount of effort religious organisations will to conceal, or protect the perpetrator, once cases are uncovered.

In my lifetime, I'd wager the same logic applies to childrens wards in hospitals, youth organisations such as scouts/girl guides, and organised sport.

I'm not sure that your doubts would be a huge comfort to victims from abuse in secular schools. Such doubts are certainly a comfort to perpetrators in such settings as they have allowed allegations to be brushed off as the malicious outpourings of disgruntled students.

There is a difference between churches and schools. The former are usually national or international organisations, which has allowed them to move problems on as a form of cover up. That?s just about the only difference insofar as abuse is concerned.

As for the Scouts, I feel that your wager is sadly misplaced:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...scout-movement

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65881603

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/s...-***ual-abuse/

https://www.reuters.com/legal/litiga...nt-2024-11-06/

That took two minutes with Google.

Edit: Looks like 3 of the links don't work because the 3 letters s e x appear in the URLs, but hopefully you will get the drift.

[UlleyMiller]

I think my lifetime may be a deal shorter than the stories around scouting organisations would point at, certainly in terms of volume.

There is a difference between churches and schools. The former are usually national or international organisations, which has allowed them to move problems on as a form of cover up. That?s just about the only difference insofar as abuse is concerned.

No. The main difference is that one branch exists because of lies told years ago, and countless stories added to the original lies in order to retain credibility, and although there are known issues with what children are taught (history and maths are two known to me), they fundamentally empower people with the truth about the world and encourage them to think (relatively) freely.

Essentially, one is about preserving a series of lies, the other about developing truths. Contact and varying levels of abuse may exist in both, but the former is significantly more dangerous because of the preservation of all of its lies, and the fact that for various reasons abuse takes place in such incredible frequencies even if we don't look at cases on a 'per capita' basis or any other such metric.

I will never be anything other than amazed that these organisations exist in the modern world, and that's purely based on the ridiculousness of them - the fact they also serve as some kind of industrial scale grooming service without instilling a deep level of hatred from more outsiders is all the more absurd.

[Spuddy Speight]

And? Do you think that was the end of it?
It seems more likely that was when the cover up went into overdrive.
Anyway, it looks as though things are starting to move a bit more rapidly now with 30 more bishops under pressure to resign.
Hopefully a lot more victims will be brave enough to come forward to blow the lid off the scale of the abuse that some are claiming is still going on right now.

Could just be the tip of an iceberg? ( And I'm not referring to a lettuce ) .