Careless Tories!

[swaledale]

I get that, Swale, indeed I thought much the same as I wrote it. I guess it’s striking a balance between the ‘revenge’ of making them ‘contemplate what they’ve done for the rest of their lives’ and the saving to the taxpayer where paying for an utterly futile and dreadful existence is concerned.
Very difficult indeed, but if for instance Ian Huntley, who’s guilt is not in any sort of question, were to request humane euthanasia as opposed to the possibility of half a century behind bars then I think - admittedly at a simplistic level - I’d favour him having that choice.

Mm but on a philosophical level, what about the thousands if not hundreds of thousands living a futile and dreadful existence outside prison? And who makes the decision that its a futile and dreadful existence?

I'm actually in favour of euthanasia, but its personal decision made in certain clearly defined circumstances. Not one where somebody being punished wants to avoid the punishment.

I can't agree on cost grounds, there are many things the taxpayer pays for which could be judged to be futile, but one can't contemplate killing anybody simply to save money. Again it opens a can of worms, where does one stop, the mentally insane, severely disabled? Whatever the "moral" argument there is a case in each instance and even those with the best of intentions can make the wrong judgement call, never mind those of a more authoritarian nature.

Anyway, this is all just *******s, Anderson has been put there not because the majority of Tories approve of him, but because they know he will be attract votes from the "knuckle dragging" brigade and he is useful "dead cat" to distract from the real issues of the day.

[ramAnag]

Mm but on a philosophical level, what about the thousands if not hundreds of thousands living a futile and dreadful existence outside prison? And who makes the decision that its a futile and dreadful existence?

I'm actually in favour of euthanasia, but its personal decision made in certain clearly defined circumstances. Not one where somebody being punished wants to avoid the punishment.

I can't agree on cost grounds, there are many things the taxpayer pays for which could be judged to be futile, but one can't contemplate killing anybody simply to save money. Again it opens a can of worms, where does one stop, the mentally insane, severely disabled? Whatever the "moral" argument there is a case in each instance and even those with the best of intentions can make the wrong judgement call, never mind those of a more authoritarian nature.

Anyway, this is all just *******s, Anderson has been put there not because the majority of Tories approve of him, but because they know he will be attract votes from the "knuckle dragging" brigade and he is useful "dead cat" to distract from the real issues of the day.

Sorry, hadn’t really made the connection with Anderson although I do agree entirely with your appraisal of him.

As regards the rest. In a previous existence I spent a lot of time working with troubled young people who included more than their fair share of potential young offenders and I also made a few visits to certain institutions and arranged for prisoners to talk to the youngsters (Y11) in school.

The stories they told were seriously scary. They were meant to be, but talking to our visitors afterwards...their stories weren’t exaggerated.
What they told us about how those perceived as the lowest of the low - child killers, abusers etc - were treated was little short of horrific. That’s perhaps how it should be...in most cases I struggle to feel any sympathy...but if we’re attempting to show some sort of compassion then maybe euthanasia is an option because I suspect the lives of the likes of Huntley and Brady are/were the definition of futility.

Hugely difficult issue which only fools will seek to over simplify.

[swaledale]

I've also worked with the justice and prison systems and it was always ironic how criminals within prison exercised "moral" judgement over other prisoners, as if somebody who only blagged a jewellers with a sawn off and severely traumatised the staff was a cut above anyone else. Also ex Police offices don't get an easy ride either. Mind you many of the prison officers were no better!!

That is more reflection on how utterly useless the prison system is in dealing with offenders and failing any sort of rehabilitation.

[ramAnag]

I've also worked with the justice and prison systems and it was always ironic how criminals within prison exercised "moral" judgement over other prisoners, as if somebody who only blagged a jewellers with a sawn off and severely traumatised the staff was a cut above anyone else. Also ex Police offices don't get an easy ride either. Mind you many of the prison officers were no better!!

That is more reflection on how utterly useless the prison system is in dealing with offenders and failing any sort of rehabilitation.

Again I largely agree, but as far as any possibility of euthanasia/voluntary termination (struggling to know what to call it tbh) I am referring to those who have committed crimes so severe that they transcend any possibility of ‘rehabilitation’ or - hopefully - future release.

The whole issue of any form of euthanasia is enormously complicated and probably doubly uncomfortable for a forum where the vast majority are over 60. Probably worth a thread of its own...the prison aspect only adds an additional level of complexity but essentially the questions remain the same...if life has no quality and little likelihood of release (from dreadful illness or incarceration) is it worth living and should a choice, with the necessary guarantees, be offered?

Maybe too deep and depressing for a Saturday morning and certainly a long way off ‘Careless Tories’ so I’ll apologise to anyone who finds the whole topic unsavoury, but at least - he said trying to return to the topic - we’ve given things more considerate thought than Lee Anderson.

[MadAmster]

I've also worked with the justice and prison systems and it was always ironic how criminals within prison exercised "moral" judgement over other prisoners, as if somebody who only blagged a jewellers with a sawn off and severely traumatised the staff was a cut above anyone else. Also ex Police offices don't get an easy ride either. Mind you many of the prison officers were no better!!

That is more reflection on how utterly useless the prison system is in dealing with offenders and failing any sort of rehabilitation.

Ex prisoners frightening the life out of kids to deter them from wrongdoing. We do it over here too. Part of the mentoring classes. One year we had 2 murderers in. A man who had a long list of crimes including stealing, drug dealing and the murder of another drug dealer. He was supposed to be selling the other dealer a sizeable stash.... the other bloke pulled a gun, he pulled his in retaliation and fired first.... The other, a woman had a rap sheet including drug possession, stealing and prostitution to fund her habit. Ended up killing her pimp. Neither of them shied away from the gory details of prison "life".

Two weeks later, a child from another class who hadn't been enlightened by our 2 murderers, was arrested for drug running and assault. 14 years old. Up to his neck in a drugs gang. He was in a young offenders establishment and was released on his 18th. As far as I know he's been a "good lad" since.

Same school year. A girl in my mentor class left the house one morning with her Dad who was going to drive her to school.. she never got to school that day. A hitman had been hired to kill Dad. He missed Dad and the girl took a bullet to the arm. Dad was a well known underworld figure. We used that story to discourage kids from offending. How would they feel if a rival gang wanted them dead and a stray bullet hit brother/sister/Mam/Dad//Granny....

[swaledale]

Oh der, Johnson is looking shafted as the interim report of the Parliamentary privileges committee seems to show that he did lie to parliament and knew he was breaking those laws he introduced for the rest of the country.

Meanwhile that snake in the grass, Oake****t, has shafted Hancock, but also the Tories including Johnson with the leak of whatsapp messages - mm they do all seem to be very carless!!

[MadAmster]

Oh der, Johnson is looking shafted as the interim report of the Parliamentary privileges committee seems to show that he did lie to parliament and knew he was breaking those laws he introduced for the rest of the country.

Meanwhile that snake in the grass, Oake****t, has shafted Hancock, but also the Tories including Johnson with the leak of whatsapp messages - mm they do all seem to be very carless!!

Not in the same way Hancock shafted his assistant but I, for one, am not sad that he and Johnson look like they are going to start getting the comeuppance it seems they deserve for the 5hitshow they dumped on the country.

[swaledale]

Not in the same way Hancock shafted his assistant but I, for one, am not sad that he and Johnson look like they are going to start getting the comeuppance it seems they deserve for the 5hitshow they dumped on the country.

Oh I've no sympathy with Hancock! He must ahve been dim to trust someone known for shafting her sources and whose partner leads the Reform party!!

It certainly seems that Johnson is likely to go down in flames, though these people do seem teflon like, look at Trump multiple legal actions against him and his companies, still falsely claiming he "won" the last election, still millions support him, its grim really.

Would a resurgent Johnson, been able to rally the Tory vote by the next election, or will a vaguely competent Sunak be a better prospect for them? Of course, the stuff thats being revealed now involves Sunak because he was in government supporting this stuff at the time, so he is still tainted!

[MadAmster]

Is it pure coincidence that BJ's surname is also slang for a certain male body part?

Add the name Hancock into the mix and you can see why they are Jodrells

[SithHappens]

I would personally have preferred if to come out in the covid enquiry, not sure who Oakshott is trying to kid that she is doing this in the National interest, it's clearly self interest she is doing it. More fool Hancock for involving her though considering her reputation.