Brexit

[Despair]

He is certainly outspoken, but it reached fever pitch there.
I do not entirely disagree that the very elite bureaucratic group he was berating did not deserve some criticism in their whole approach to their populaces concerns. Now that Cameron is almost free from his shackles he said the same, but far more diplomatically and understandably in defence of his 'failure'.
The EU elitists were apportioning all of the blame on him (of the referendum outcome) but in my mind at least they have very little defence in that they gave him 'crumbs' to feed the masses in order to put the vote in his/their favour.
This is the classic: the devil you know vs ???
One never knows, it just may work out fine in the end, so each and everyone can simply go with their gut instinct upon the eventual outcome
Is there going to be a EU revolution, is it going to limp towards a collapse. Or are the elitists going to rigidly hold sway and repel all, and with that create the ultimate federal state. And will that state thrive and prosper (eventually)?
Not surprisingly already the French are beginning to plan the move of the 'border' back across the 'divide' onto our soil. But I suspect that this will be challenged, as I think the deal could well be under some kind of EU membership umbrella, of which we are still part of (for now). Despite that they will do, regardless, what they will following this ill tempered stand off.

Is the UK going to cease to exist, as we know it. And if so, how is this fracturing going to end up?

[champs95]

We got told last week the pound would suffer. With immediate effect. And it would keep falling.
It back up to the same as it was a week ago.
I think everyone was fed a huge lie around the world, and here.
What did come out of it, was people voiced huge concerns about immigration. Which was never the intention of calling a referendum.
What's laughable is nobody who called the bloody thing, ever considered that the people would vote to leave. Resulting in the PM walking away in a pathetic gutless act, like the England football managed to do days later. It simply highlights how out of touch the people are running the country are from the people residing and working in it.
And how the media are reporting all of this, is so far away from the truth, is frightening.

[Despair]

I trade a lot in the euro, therefore I have a constant eye on it.
The 1.41 at the turn of the year was fairly inexplicable and IMO falsely high. As I watched it decline I researched what was the 'nominal' true valuation of it (in the opinion of finance market traders) and the figure determined was around 1.24.
Its now at 1.21 (a shade over -2%). The figure directly pre ref was 1.30, but this due to the media and many hailing a staying in vote returning. Again falsely high. It was realistically at 1.26/27 (+2.5%) leading up to the last week.
That says to me (as it stands) that 1.24 is a pretty good marker. And that 'fall' is far, far less than I personally feared (up to now!).

The issue the markets have is the uncertainty, and as is always the case there's going to be winners and losers in the offing.
I very much doubt though that a major share of the 'winnings' are going to be bestowed down to the common man.

[champs95]

And guess what? Shock horror ....Boris Johnson isn't going to be PM. That's a surprise.
I guess people who listen to the media to much can breath easy now.

[Despair]

On the subject of money Champs: have you ever been tempted to be one of Sterlings Instagram followers ??? !!!
I mean, the mans a 'god' isn't he ?

On today of all days (The Somme anniv.), how many others feel utter disgust towards these pampered, selfish, no marks. It makes me weep.

[champs95]

On the subject of money Champs: have you ever been tempted to be one of Sterlings Instagram followers ??? !!!
I mean, the mans a 'god' isn't he ?

On today of all days (The Somme anniv.), how many others feel utter disgust towards these pampered, selfish, no marks. It makes me weep.

I just couldn't be one of these fans of these big clubs anymore. Players like Sterling are the reason I've almost lost all interest in football. It's simply that I've been associated with it, since I was a wee lad. The game shoved down my throat is not even reminiscent of the game I fell in love with, and continued to entertain me throughout my life. But it's the influx of money, the mass coverage and over exposure ......and the very worst of all.....little ****s like Sterling earning more in a year than I will ever dream of seeing.

The Euro's are a good example of how far it's gone for me. It's been awful, almost every match has been a turgid, non event of a football match. Yet I'm being told (in the media again talking for us and getting it wrong) it's been amazing! No it hasn't, it's been like the premier league almost every season. Boring as hell. Why anyone expected any different from the England side is beyond me.
And back in 1998 every single Rovers fan learnt all about how tactically nieve, emotionally damaged, joke of a manger Hodgson was. hes learnt nothing since. I could've to,d the FA that. And I find it hilarious that Allardyce is now being mentioned. I really hope he gets it. Just to see the same comments and hysteria when they get beaten out in Russia (if they got there) by Venezuela. And the clueless sod is sat next to an FA suit wondering where it went wrong in the first place. How nobody can see this is beyond me?
The only 3 sporting events I've been remotely interested in since the Euro's has been in, are the 3 Test matches we won in Australia in Rugby Union. In that sport they reacted to a poor WC and made the relevant changes. Players giving it there all, passion, pride, skill and leadership from a guy who is a winner. I couldn't care less where he comes from, we just want winners.
Sadly football died when the money came rolling in. We know, we where pretty much the first club to do it in the modern age of football. And Sterling a the perfect example of everything that's wrong.
Hence my shock and horror when I went to the pub to watch the Iceland game. And saw most lads my age, wearing ****ing England tops, with Rooney on the back? Rooney?? My god.

[AucklandRover]

We got told last week the pound would suffer. With immediate effect. And it would keep falling.
It back up to the same as it was a week ago.
I think everyone was fed a huge lie around the world, and here.
What did come out of it, was people voiced huge concerns about immigration. Which was never the intention of calling a referendum.
What's laughable is nobody who called the bloody thing, ever considered that the people would vote to leave. Resulting in the PM walking away in a pathetic gutless act, like the England football managed to do days later. It simply highlights how out of touch the people are running the country are from the people residing and working in it.
And how the media are reporting all of this, is so far away from the truth, is frightening.

Champs - I genuinely don't know what your last sentence means. You seem to think that everyone not on the scene has been hoodwinked by one extreme media-outlet or another. I can assure you that is not the case. The topic is huge in New Zealand, and not just in the media. EVERYONE raises the subject, and most people acknowledge that the fear of unregulated immigration and profound changes in the character of English towns/cities were key factors in the outcome.
I don't know what you are specifically referring to when you say "everyone was fed a huge lie around the world".
What HAS emerged for sure is that most of the promises of the "leave-campaign" were lies.
As for the Pound, it is STILL 10% lower against the $NZ than it was the day before the referendum. That's a pretty massive fall.

[AucklandRover]

He is certainly outspoken, but it reached fever pitch there.
I do not entirely disagree that the very elite bureaucratic group he was berating did not deserve some criticism in their whole approach to their populaces concerns. Now that Cameron is almost free from his shackles he said the same, but far more diplomatically and understandably in defence of his 'failure'.
The EU elitists were apportioning all of the blame on him (of the referendum outcome) but in my mind at least they have very little defence in that they gave him 'crumbs' to feed the masses in order to put the vote in his/their favour.
This is the classic: the devil you know vs ???
One never knows, it just may work out fine in the end, so each and everyone can simply go with their gut instinct upon the eventual outcome
Is there going to be a EU revolution, is it going to limp towards a collapse. Or are the elitists going to rigidly hold sway and repel all, and with that create the ultimate federal state. And will that state thrive and prosper (eventually)?
Not surprisingly already the French are beginning to plan the move of the 'border' back across the 'divide' onto our soil. But I suspect that this will be challenged, as I think the deal could well be under some kind of EU membership umbrella, of which we are still part of (for now). Despite that they will do, regardless, what they will following this ill tempered stand off.

Is the UK going to cease to exist, as we know it. And if so, how is this fracturing going to end up?

I am still in touch with people in the UK who are now labelled "hard-Left". Some of them voted to leave because they believe - quite rightly - that the EU has simply made free-market (Thatcherite) economic theory more firmly entrenched. On the other hand, the Left has always believed in Internationalism - including the breaking down of the mindless "my country, right or wrong" beliefs that have led to so many wars (and which still fuel the fascist Right across Europe).
That first step in the destruction of a cross-border union (however flawed the EU might be) was what hurt me most, because I'm scared that we might be moving back towards the exact state of affairs that kept Europe busy with internal wars for 2000 years.
This is NOT pig-ignorance on my part (whatever Seventwo thinks). Of course the biggest factor was nothing to do with nationalism; it was the fact that no-one seemed to be listening about unrestricted immigration. All the same, it does seem a massive case of throwing the baby out with the bath-water, especially as the leaders of the "leave-campaign" now seem to be admitting they can't do much about immigration, anyway!
I think it's an insult to those outside the UK to say they "don't understand" or are "not qualified to comment". Does that mean non-Americans should refrain from commenting on the horrifying prospect of President Trump?

Sorry, Despair - this has has drifted miles from your post. The whole thing is a colossal shambles and no-one seems to have a "cunning plan". Perhaps Baldric might be able to see a way through this!
One particular puzzle I have: why did Wales vote to leave when so much EU money has gone in that direction?

[Despair]

The very fabric of the society/nation that is thought to be being 're claimed' is being fractured (beyond repair?). There is no telling at this time what will emerge at the other end.
The EU is an institution that was founded on well meaning ideals, but its become more and more autocratic.
However, from any one day to the next it swings back and forth in its deliberations as to its reaction to Brexit. They are as divided as we are seemingly. On one side its a case of 'no surrender under any circumstances'. On the other its a case of 'whoa wait on, we need the UK to be with us in any guise'.
IMO we need to continue trading with EU, but we also need some form of control as per our peoples wishes. There has to be mediation for this to happen. The wisest heads know this.
There has to be a coming together of the whole EU to retain their continuation, as the wolves are on the sidelines awaiting their chance to bring it down. Then what?
It would be wonderful to envisage / see all nations of the EU, get along in harmony post a EU demise, but I am not confident.
I real do think not everyone has thought really hard enough about the ramifications in all of this.
As for Wales I can only surmise that that are willing to gamble the benefits away in turn for ? their national identity? Against the establishment? I am as confused as you.

[alfinyalcabo]

The only reason I voted to leave was I was fed up with being ruled and told what to do from Brussels.. Nothing else ..