OT: Chilcot Report

[ramAnag]

You know more than me about all this and you also have an emotional involvement via your friends and what they have been through.
We won't agree on the Belgrano or Thatcher's real motivation. For me Thatcher is just as guilty as Blair and that's a sad indictment of our longest standing recent leaders, but I respect your opinion and the undeniable value of access to first hand accounts.

[Ramfantastic]

Ha Ha Ha, Everyone knows everything! Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
British Squaddies signed up to the Forces, in signing up they knew they must obey orders!
If you can remember at the time we went to war with Iraq the majority of the population seemed to be in favour, so I'm assuming that majority was also a majority within the forces!
If you are told to fight then that is what you do "b***dy fight!
German soldiers had to do as they were told, because if they disobeyed they knew their families and loved ones would be tortured and/or killed, but comparing WW2 to the Iraq war is ridiculous, they are poles apart.

Maybe the Iraq war was illegal (although there is evidence suggesting that the WMD were moved to Syria in 2002) and that Saddam had major links to terrorist cells), although if we had not of funded and supplied Saddam with certain weapons he would and could not of been seen as a threat.

To blame Blair completely is ridiculous as I remember it the Cabinet were just as much at fault.

As I started this thread "hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm pretty sure the anti war feeling in the press today is some what different to just before the invasion"! So no no no Squaddies are not to blame, Blair and his cabinet are partially to blame and yet again our lovely media must take its share of the blame!

[Trickytreesreds]

You know more than me about all this and you also have an emotional involvement via your friends and what they have been through.
We won't agree on the Belgrano or Thatcher's real motivation. For me Thatcher is just as guilty as Blair and that's a sad indictment of our longest standing recent leaders, but I respect your opinion and the undeniable value of access to first hand accounts.

Debate, is not all about agreement Rammy,
But please don't just trust your gut and follow any personal beliefs before deciding.
If you want more, the Captain's opinion may help you.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ay/25/uk.world

People calling decisions war crimes, don't always look at the bigger picture.

[ramAnag]

Certainly food for thought TTR and a perspective I have to admit I hadn't considered before. Thanks for that.

P.S. 'Rammy'? Not me! That's OTR's privilege or the daft mascot at the iPro.

[Trickytreesreds]

A good piece from wikipedia for you-

La Nación published a reader's letter from Admiral Enrique Molina Pico (head of the Argentine Navy in the 1990s) in 2005 in which Pico wrote that General Belgrano was part of an operation that posed a real threat to the British task force, but was holding off for tactical reasons. Pico added that "To leave the exclusion zone was not to leave the combat zone to enter a protected area". Pico explicitly stated that the sinking was not a war crime, but a combat action.[49]

General Belgrano's captain, Héctor Bonzo, died on 22 April 2009, aged 76. He had spent his last years working for an association called Amigos del Crucero General Belgrano (Friends of the Cruiser General Belgrano) whose purpose was to help those affected by the sinking.[50] Captain Bonzo also wrote his memories about the sinking in the book 1093 Tripulantes del Crucero ARA General Belgrano, published in 1992. In this book he wrote that it is "improper to accept that (...) the attack by HMS Conqueror was a betrayal".[51] During an interview in 2003 he had stated that General Belgrano was only temporarily sailing to the west at the time of the attack, and his orders were to attack any British ships which came within range of the cruiser's armament.[52]

In late 2011, Major David Thorp, a former British military intelligence officer who led the signals intercept team aboard HMS Intrepid, released the book The Silent Listener detailing the role of intelligence in the Falklands War. In the book he stated that despite the fact that General Belgrano was observed by Conqueror sailing away from the Falklands at the time of the attack, she had actually been ordered to proceed to a rendezvous point within the Exclusion Zone.[53][54] A report prepared by Thorp for Thatcher several months after the incident stated the destination of the vessel was not to her home port as the Argentine Junta stated; the report was not released because the Prime Minister did not want to compromise British signals intelligence capabilities.[55]

In 2012 the President of Argentina, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, referred to the sinking of General Belgrano as a "war crime".[56] However, the Argentine Navy has historically held the view that the sinking was a legitimate act of war,[57] a position that was asserted by the Argentine Navy before various courts in 1995.[49]

[Trickytreesreds]

Yes it is hard making the bad people go way. There are still people about that have been fighting terrorism since 1492. Also what places you with the good people and not bad people where by nature and belief you firmly belong ? Also don't forget Gandhi found a way of dealing with and implementing it, but that took real guts and real solidarity instead of the cannon fodder who take the softer option, keep a low profile and hope that the next bullet is not earmarked for them.

You're quoting Ghandi as a way to go?
Are you ever real Basil?
Cannon fodder, could be considered a better alternative to Ghandi's thinking. Don't get me started on the rest of his quirks.
However, I'll stick with the topic at hand.

Do you condone and endorse this quote of the nappy wearer?

“Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.”

So your hero, endorsed that people should make martyrs of themselves rather than resist?
You really need a wake up call Basil.
Don't even attribute Indian independence down to him. It wasn't.

[southernram22]

i thought stalin killed more than hitler and the japs murdered half of c hina but still deny it.

[Trickytreesreds]

i thought stalin killed more than hitler and the japs murdered half of c hina but still deny it.

12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
Gandhi would have sorted it with an hunger strike.

[roger_ramjet]

Or a salt march or maybe lying down on some railway tracks.

[Akwesasne]

i thought stalin killed more than hitler and the japs murdered half of c hina but still deny it.

I don't think Hitler or Stalin killed anyone. It was those who followed their orders which is the point I keep banging on about.