OT: Scottish Independence/Referendum

[Andy_Faber]

Yeah all that 'tax and spend'...and just look what we got from it...oh yes...new schools...new and better equipped hospitals. I've got no time for Corbyn either but let's be fair...Labour were doing fine and things were a great deal better until the problems caused by grasping, greedy bankers and as this was a global problem which caused a global recession, which we're still feeling the effects of, I don't see how the hell you can blame Labour.

On the basis of 'never kick a man unless he's down', my gripe against the 'New' Labour bods wasn't that they were asleep on guard during the lead up to the credit crunch (I'll pass on that one to avoid The Wrath Of Swale), it was that all the investment in public services was negated by their 'xenofile' approach to (Eastern European EU) immigration which, as usual just IMO, was done out of spite against previous conservative policies as much as because it was the right thing to do. Of course you need more schools and hospitals if you are going to import loads of kids and folk more liable to illness. By the grace of God I've managed to sidestep the disaster than overpopulating both has created for those in need, but I have friends and relatives who have not. So I too blame labour but for something different. And as you know I'm not a political bigot so my blame is based on my perception of their performance, not the colour of their ties.

[ramAnag]

On the basis of 'never kick a man unless he's down', my gripe against the 'New' Labour bods wasn't that they were asleep on guard during the lead up to the credit crunch (I'll pass on that one to avoid The Wrath Of Swale), it was that all the investment in public services was negated by their 'xenofile' approach to (Eastern European EU) immigration which, as usual just IMO, was done out of spite against previous conservative policies as much as because it was the right thing to do. Of course you need more schools and hospitals if you are going to import loads of kids and folk more liable to illness. By the grace of God I've managed to sidestep the disaster than overpopulating both has created for those in need, but I have friends and relatives who have not. So I too blame labour but for something different. And as you know I'm not a political bigot so my blame is based on my perception of their performance, not the colour of their ties.

I know you're not a 'political bigot' but there was enormous need for investment in schools and hospitals after years of Tory neglect. Most of my first twenty years of teaching just about coincided with the eras of Thatcher and Major and the conditions we worked and kids learned in were dreadful. The last decade was a great deal better in terms of funding and facilities, if not level of government interference. I don't deny that Blair subsequently went wrong, but his input as far as the Irish problem is concerned and as far as respecting those who provide such ***** services to society as health and education and investing crucial funds in those, and other, services should, imo, not be forgotten. I don't see how he, or Labour, can be blamed for a huge financial crisis that originated in the U.S. and spread rapidly around the world.

[Andy_Faber]

I know you're not a 'political bigot' but there was enormous need for investment in schools and hospitals after years of Tory neglect. Most of my first twenty years of teaching just about coincided with the eras of Thatcher and Major and the conditions we worked and kids learned in were dreadful. The last decade was a great deal better in terms of funding and facilities, if not level of government interference. I don't deny that Blair subsequently went wrong, but his input as far as the Irish problem is concerned and as far as respecting those who provide such ***** services to society as health and education and investing crucial funds in those, and other, services should, imo, not be forgotten. I don't see how he, or Labour, can be blamed for a huge financial crisis that originated in the U.S. and spread rapidly around the world.

I respect your greater insight into the state school situation. I'll risk the wrath of many my admitting that I nearly bankrupted myself by putting my children through independent schooling for the vast majority of their school life so what I've seen was, to be honest, not representative. They both have ambassador roles with their employers into local state schools now and, to summarise, they assess state schools as looking like 'hard work'.

[roger_ramjet]

Me too Andy, but when you look at the quality of the use of English by the younger generation on this board, which I am guessing reflects the state system, I consider it money well spent. Sometimes though I ponder what else I could "of" done with that money

[Ram59]

I know you're not a 'political bigot' but there was enormous need for investment in schools and hospitals after years of Tory neglect. Most of my first twenty years of teaching just about coincided with the eras of Thatcher and Major and the conditions we worked and kids learned in were dreadful. The last decade was a great deal better in terms of funding and facilities, if not level of government interference. I don't deny that Blair subsequently went wrong, but his input as far as the Irish problem is concerned and as far as respecting those who provide such ***** services to society as health and education and investing crucial funds in those, and other, services should, imo, not be forgotten. I don't see how he, or Labour, can be blamed for a huge financial crisis that originated in the U.S. and spread rapidly around the world.

Is this Bliar's publicity machine? Regarding the Irish situation, he was just there at the right time to grab the glory after all the hard work that was done prior to the general election of 97. I think the terminology is that he rubbed stamped the deal. No, Labour weren't to blame for the crash, but during the good times, they still over spent and put us deeper into debt in the false belief that there would be no bust. A policy which supplied new schools and hospitals but also caused massive debts that we are still suffering from now, over 10 years later. It's easy to provide extra services and be a hero, I'd you don't bother where the money is coming from. My kids would have thought I was a hero if I had bought them the latest fashions and gadgets and took took them all over the world on dream holidays. Trouble is that would have meant going deep into debt for for knows How many years to come.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong and Bliar is a god after all and not the biggest con merchant known in British politics.

[ramAnag]

Is this Bliar's publicity machine? Regarding the Irish situation, he was just there at the right time to grab the glory after all the hard work that was done prior to the general election of 97. I think the terminology is that he rubbed stamped the deal. No, Labour weren't to blame for the crash, but during the good times, they still over spent and put us deeper into debt in the false belief that there would be no bust. A policy which supplied new schools and hospitals but also caused massive debts that we are still suffering from now, over 10 years later. It's easy to provide extra services and be a hero, I'd you don't bother where the money is coming from. My kids would have thought I was a hero if I had bought them the latest fashions and gadgets and took took them all over the world on dream holidays. Trouble is that would have meant going deep into debt for for knows How many years to come.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong and Bliar is a god after all and not the biggest con merchant known in British politics.

Which bit of 'I don't deny that Blair subsequently went wrong' did you miss? So no, it's nothing to do with Blair's publicity machine. I've only ever voted Labour or Liberal in my life but not because I'm particularly taken with either of them. From my professional perspective things improved dramatically within state schools after Blair took office, as far as the NHS is concerned local facilities improved dramatically during the period of Labour administration and in your haste to dismiss his contribution to the peace process you seem to forget that just a short time before Labour came to power there had been atrocities in both Warrington and the Arndale in Manchester so I'd say there was quite a lot still to do. I don't like what Blair became and I've certainly never, as you imply, seen him as a 'God' but credit where it's due.
I too believe, like you, in living within my means but no world leaders seem to have seen the 'crash' coming and successive Labour governments went about 'fixing the roof while the sun shone'. If you want to see 'con merchants' in British politics then you need look no further than the current sorry bunch (that's a non-aligned comment by the way) and Roger...you can hardly try and judge the quality of teaching in this country via reference to one particular poster on this site whose use of English upsets you.

[swaledale]

You say the housing and health crisis has nothing to do with immigration, I beg to differ.

Whilst I agree that we need immigrants to do the work that many brits are unwilling to do and prefer to pick up their benefits cheque. The inability of successive governments to get these people contributing to society has led us to the simple solution of getting immigrants in to do the work.

Net immigration is in excess of the number of housing being built, which must be contributing to the housing crisis. I know many people who work in health and education and they all tell me that non English speaking people are causing many problems in their work.

How much does one child who doesn't speak English, hold up the rest of the class. In fact, in many classes, English is not the first language. It's the same in health, you get 10 minutes for an appointment, a non English speaker has to have an interpreter paid for and then every question and every answer has to be repeated, taking far longer.

I know many immigrants do speak good English, but there are a significant number that don't, of which some are eu.

OK lets look at this objectively, its not that we have had to have immigrants in to do jobs because we have let Brits just claim the dole, we have an ageing population and not enough people being born - the fact that the unemployment rate is 4.8% and full employment is about 4.5% as there are always going to be people who for a number of valid reasons cannot work.

If these extra people were white UK youngsters as a result of a baby boom then this discussion wouldn't be taking place, it would focus on the need for investment in housing, (especially low cost rented housing more schools and more health facilities, but Brexit took the spot light off that simply because these additional people who we need and will still need after Brexit were foreign.

So the housing issue is not about immigrants (and lets focus on EU immigrants here as thats what Brexit is supposed to solve!) but about chronic under investment in housing by governments whether labour or Tory, the private sector house builders wont solve it because they are in business to make money and excess of demand over supply equals high prices and big profits and how many Tory MP's have shares in house builders?

Yes there are areas of the country where there are a high proportion of immigrants whether EU or outside the EU and in some cases there is an issue of language, but again the situation hasn't been managed properly, perhaps if govenrment had insisted on being able to speak english and provided english lessons and other support and assistance like other countries who rely on immigration do, then those issues would be less.

The fact is though that immigrants not only do jobs that others wont do or where there is not enough labour, they also do jobs where there is a skill shortage, viz doctors, surgeons, nurses, vets, scientists, construction workers all these are needed to keep the country operating effectively and we simply don't have the people even if they could be trained to do these jobs.

Immigration is a red herring it is not the problem, the problem is a lack of planning and investment by government and if anyone thinks the Tories want anything other than a low wage, unregulated low tax economy which benefits only those who are already rich, then your in for a shock.

[Andy_Faber]

OK lets look at this objectively, its not that we have had to have immigrants in to do jobs because we have let Brits just claim the dole, we have an ageing population and not enough people being born - the fact that the unemployment rate is 4.8% and full employment is about 4.5% as there are always going to be people who for a number of valid reasons cannot work.

If these extra people were white UK youngsters as a result of a baby boom then this discussion wouldn't be taking place, it would focus on the need for investment in housing, (especially low cost rented housing more schools and more health facilities, but Brexit took the spot light off that simply because these additional people who we need and will still need after Brexit were foreign.

So the housing issue is not about immigrants (and lets focus on EU immigrants here as thats what Brexit is supposed to solve!) but about chronic under investment in housing by governments whether labour or Tory, the private sector house builders wont solve it because they are in business to make money and excess of demand over supply equals high prices and big profits and how many Tory MP's have shares in house builders?

Yes there are areas of the country where there are a high proportion of immigrants whether EU or outside the EU and in some cases there is an issue of language, but again the situation hasn't been managed properly, perhaps if govenrment had insisted on being able to speak english and provided english lessons and other support and assistance like other countries who rely on immigration do, then those issues would be less.

The fact is though that immigrants not only do jobs that others wont do or where there is not enough labour, they also do jobs where there is a skill shortage, viz doctors, surgeons, nurses, vets, scientists, construction workers all these are needed to keep the country operating effectively and we simply don't have the people even if they could be trained to do these jobs.

Immigration is a red herring it is not the problem, the problem is a lack of planning and investment by government and if anyone thinks the Tories want anything other than a low wage, unregulated low tax economy which benefits only those who are already rich, then your in for a shock.

I'd say almost right - The PROBLEM is swollen infrastructure (including housing, sorry you are dead wrong there), the CAUSE is immigration, and the CAUSE of that is (now) underinvestment and (was) reckless immigration controls back in the day.

[swaledale]

I'd say almost right - The PROBLEM is swollen infrastructure (including housing, sorry you are dead wrong there), the CAUSE is immigration, and the CAUSE of that is (now) underinvestment and (was) reckless immigration controls back in the day.

WTF is swollen infrastructure? How I am I dead wrong on housing? Please explain?


No lack of investment has been a decades long story, especially on infrastructure?

Reckless immigration controls? Mm we still needed them and thats what has driven the economic growth in this country, what i was saying is that better planning would have made the difference its a simple demographic - low birth rate, people living longer and it caps growth unless the labour can be found from somewhere - of course if you are of a generation that feels threatened by foreigners then this unpalatable but its a unchallengeable fact.

[swaledale]

I respect your greater insight into the state school situation. I'll risk the wrath of many my admitting that I nearly bankrupted myself by putting my children through independent schooling for the vast majority of their school life so what I've seen was, to be honest, not representative. They both have ambassador roles with their employers into local state schools now and, to summarise, they assess state schools as looking like 'hard work'.

Both my kids had state schooling and both seemed have managed OK, and as the majority of children do the same and do not seem to be any dumber or less able than non state educated kids, I challenge the perception that indpedntly educated kids do better due the standard of education they receive.