If we had a goalscorer we would be top 10

[pboromag]

Mate, be fair - you insisted to me that Mitrovic wouldn't improve no matter how much he was coached. Are you saying Joselu is a better prospect than Mitrovic? If that's your opinion, fair enough, but it does look a little inconsistent.

nope im saying even now given game time mitrovick is a better forward than joselaho

but rafa doesnt want him as he wont appologise

i dont think either should be our first choice striker but i would certainly hive mistertrick a game before joselwho

at least he tries

[ghostrider]

See, I largely disagree with you there. I do think it's a privilege to have him here. In a way, one'd be mad not to when you look at his career and then think of where were when he joined us. So his mere presence has given us hope. You can't say that about Carver, McClaren or Pardew - even though I fully acknowledge that Pardew did some decent work occasionally when he was here.

I can well understand your thinking on him.
I'd like to have that feeling as well but I don't think he's deserving of my mindset on it being a privilege.
When he first came I got excited.
When we went down I wasn't exactly interested whether he stayed or went when he seemed to take an age deicing his contract.
However, when he did, I was back onboard.
I was still onboard but a little bit disillusioned as to how he was playing and how he played the players.....but, I was still firmly onboard.
And then this which for me is not acceptable from him and we deserve better from him with what he has instead of bemoaning what he has.
That's my gripe but I'd dearly love for him to change it.

We, as fans of NUFC, are always being made fun of by pundits, "experts" and fans of other clubs for getting on the back of our managers too soon and for being deluded. It bothers me that now that we have a manager whom we know what stands for, sees the potential in the club and has stayed on even though he's been f*cked over, some fans insist on not supporting him as we are going through a rough patch. Can't we get behind the manager, now that we have one with a very good track record?

Yeah I get that and that's why I mentioned us feeling more privileged to have him because of this exact thing.
We feel like we have the mothers pinny to sort of hide behind as if Rafa stands loud and proud as a force in the football world that cannot and will not be bashed down.
He's our comfort blanket among the vultures and we as fans feel some kind of allegiance to him for his rep rather than anything he's doing on that training pitch that manifests into the game ahead.
He's on 5/6 million a year. We shouldn't really have to play thankful....he should earn it.

The main reason we are going through a rough patch is Mike Ashley, not Rafael Benitez. That doesn't mean he's blameless. And I do think fans would have lost patience had it been someone else - like you say Ghost - but that's irrelevant to me; knowing he has brought success in the past is a good enough reason for us fans to have patience and give him time (and money!) to do what we know he can.

I get what you're saying and I understand that but bringing success in the past is absolutely no bearing on bringing it in the future the way this game has changed.
He requires a shed load of money. Simple as that. I know this and so do we all.
He is not guaranteed anything even with a shed load but it might give him a leg up into a flirt with a top 4 fight or if the gods shone down and lit up the club to say " IT'S YOU" then yeah, who knows.
However, to do this requires more than the club can afford and far more of an owner than Ashley to dare to provide it.
Ashley's not stupid, he knows the post code and he knows who the elites are.

As long as football stays as it is, we will always yoyo in the premier league but we certainly won't be the only ones.
Only the blank cheque brigade can change all that but we lose the real identity of the club once that happens.

The way I see it, Rafa's not at all immune to criticism. Most managers are questioned over their abilities week in week out. I have my doubts about his substitutions in matches (generally) and I think he's underestimating our ability to hang on to a lead. But those are not major issues for me right now. The key thing is the long run and what Rafa can do here if he's allowed to do it.

I get that as well.
I might not be seeing the real genius in Rafa. Maybe I'm looking too far ahead at what his game appears to look like for me.
However, how long does he get and how much money is enough for him to be deemed backed enough to give us fans what we deserve....which is the very least, entertaining football for 90 plus minutes on average of just once a week.
Surely that's not too much to ask.
Do we andure dire football and go down with the mindset of putting Rafa on a pedestal saying he's done fantastic with a championship squad?
It makes no sense.
The man is paid a kings ransom to enhance what he has at his disposal.
All I see are players that are generally pinned down from their potential but coached into defensive minded, first and foremost battlers with effort as the key before anything else.

If we get relegated Rafa appears to have a get out of jail free card for blame.
If we stay up Rafa has the freedom of the city type thing. the man who saved us and only Rafa could do it because now we all see why his odd decisions came into play.

The man literally cannot lose and appears to be able to get away with anything.
I'd love for it all to be shoved into my face but he needs to start now and change the way he's setting us up or we really are down and no amount of excuses is going to change that.

I, for one, am happy not to see "RAFA OUT"-flags all around the ground. I don't think it would make sense, and I'm happy that the fans - generally speaking - are getting behind our manager, even if he is defensive-minded etc.

At this stage I don't want to see anything that goes against the grain.
The players need to be backed.
In fact I can see a lot more in those players and actually respect them for their efforts.
If Rafa let's them show their true potential then we will easily get out of trouble. I absolutely believe it 1 million per cent.

All it takes is the same mindset as the first half of games and we will amss well enough points.
Play the same way and we are gone....seriously.
And for me, Rafa will be to blame, just as he will be revered if he changes it up now and we escape.

He can't have it both ways.
It's not " look what you could have had" or " if only this" or "he can't work with what he has and expect to be successful".....it is what it is and 11 other clubs are doing the same with equal and sometimes worse squads than what we have and yet they're called PREMIER league clubs whilst we hang on to what we're told as in being a so called championship club with teh argument of being too good for the championship but not good enough for the premier league..
It batters my head, it really does.

[ghostrider]

That's why I chose my words carefully - I used the phrase 'as though' because I don't think anybody here is so silly as to think the situation comes down to a single person's decisions. But they often present their opinion as though they think it is. Like, for example, when you say you "guarantee" that if (e.g.) Eddie Howe was in charge we'd be clamouring for his head under the same set of performances and results (I assume that's what you mean, apologies if I've misread it but I've had a few!) I think that's an odd claim for a number of reasons.

I made the claim because I've got experience of seeing the discontent over managers that can go from hero to zero in short order and I believe this would be the same with the type of managers I mentioned...especially in this scenario.
If fans take to a manager as have belief in him for whatever reasons then that manager is generally afforded some time before the claws come out. Rafa is in this category by reputation and no past history with us fans in any way.
It's the nature of the beast and isn't exclusive to Newcastle fans.

Firstly, I don't understand where you think Rafa gets this mythical status from amongst Newcastle fans. I don't remember ever - not even once - having a conversation with a Newcastle fan about how good a manager Rafa was before he joined Newcastle (at least, not more than anyone else who has been successful elsewhere). Rafa was just yet another manager who's won trophies/done a good job elsewhere before he joined the club. People warmed to him here specifically because he talked about things we hadn't heard recent managers talking about in the years before him - getting us back to where we were prior to the Ashley era, making the club reconnect with the fans and the community etc. And he has actually delivered on some of that stuff. We've had other managers here with big profiles who we never liked (e.g. Kenny Dalglish) so I just don't get the idea that we're somehow besotted by his past successes and can't see past his present failures.

I remember having loads.
I remember when we were linked.
Suddenly we were a club on the up. The new messiah could be taking over. The praying hands, etc, for him to put pen to paper as the saviour.
His history was talked about not argued about.
I was one of them that was twiddling my fingers like a kid thinking this is it.

From that to where I am now with the feeling that I'm being slapped with a wet fish every time I think Rafa will change things up.

Secondly, I think Newcastle fans on the whole have a decent enough understanding of the game to know that Eddie Howe is a top class manager who, if he was having similar results, would be struggling for largely the same reason - the squad can't deliver on his style of football. It would, of course, be worse for Eddie Howe, because our squad is even less qualified to deliver on his style than it is Rafa's. But it's incapable of delivering on either approach because both sides need someone who can put the ball in the net more often to actually win games. I think we'd feel equally privileged to have Eddie Howe I think, and we'd be getting behind him in the same way, and moaning about the fact that we don't have anyone who can put the ball in the back of the net etc.

The weird part is this squad is not geared up for defensive football as a rule. It really isn't.
However, Rafa brought in more wingers for a very valid reason which was to use pace on counter attacking and actually play both roles. A game of two halves if you like.

Thirdly, the idea that Rafa resorts to 'extreme park the bus tactics' is exactly what I was getting at as an example of the extreme view you're saying nobody has. He's done that in literally one game. We've been defensive in others, but in other games we've pressed from the front, tried to get forward in numbers as often as possible, and so on. For Rafa, it's horses for courses. I totally get why you aren't impressed by Rafa, but it looks to me like you're genuinely struggling to look at the situation impartially, or that what you're really annoyed by is people always defending Rafa's approach, rather than Rafa's approach itself.

Against the bigger teams we've parked the bus.
Against Palace at home we played ultra cautious, as did they. We came out lucky.
However, against Huddersfield away we could have taken them to task but for some reason decided to hold onto a one nil defeat rather than change the game to gain the spoils of that game. It was worse than mental and isn't an isolated game, either.

In the first half of many games we show we are far better than we are being dealt throughout the season and especially second halves of games.

And I think that if that's happening, it's only happening because of the abrasive style of the anti-Rafa views presented, in particular, by pboro, who clearly winds people on here up. Sorry if you think that's overstepping, but I just don't get where this idea of us as a delusional fanbase comes from, because I guess I don't hang out with people like that.

We aren't all going to agree and without getting into arguments, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other with certain posters who dish plenty out as well, so there's really no innocents in that respect...but....that's football forums for you. It's gonna happen.
Also molehills can easily be turned into mountains on forums.
I've had to ignore a few myself just so I'm not tempted to take them on and create a tit for tat game with them.
They know who they are and it's fairly easy to see who I've binned by looking at the profiles of them and seeing my name in there as visiting. that was to ignore the person just as many will have done to me.

So as much as you think pboro winds people up you also have to look at those that go out of their way to wind him up.

I also never wanted Rafa, so perhaps it's easier for me to see both sides of things - I'm neither disillusioned nor am I overly impressed. I think he's simply doing a decent job with the squad he's got. Could be doing better, could be worse. But he's only two wins from the top 10 and two defeats from bottom, so that stands up.

Fair enough but remember he's on 5/6 million a year and by rights has a duty to provide better football than he's doing.
However, let's see if he's got a method in his madness.

I'd like to see him given a chance to build a Premier League side because, as you point out, he has actually shown he can get us to perform in spells. Perhaps, with a decent striker to put away the chances we create, he could get us winning more often. If he did, we'd be in the top 8, which is mental!

I'm more than happy to set my hopes up with how he sets us up with Slimani and a fully match fit Kenedy, etc.
I'll give him a clean slate from this point on. Let's see what he's got.

[HughieG]

I can well understand your thinking on him.
I'd like to have that feeling as well but I don't think he's deserving of my mindset on it being a privilege.
When he first came I got excited.
When we went down I wasn't exactly interested whether he stayed or went when he seemed to take an age deicing his contract.
However, when he did, I was back onboard.
I was still onboard but a little bit disillusioned as to how he was playing and how he played the players.....but, I was still firmly onboard.
And then this which for me is not acceptable from him and we deserve better from him with what he has instead of bemoaning what he has.
That's my gripe but I'd dearly love for him to change it.


Yeah I get that and that's why I mentioned us feeling more privileged to have him because of this exact thing.
We feel like we have the mothers pinny to sort of hide behind as if Rafa stands loud and proud as a force in the football world that cannot and will not be bashed down.
He's our comfort blanket among the vultures and we as fans feel some kind of allegiance to him for his rep rather than anything he's doing on that training pitch that manifests into the game ahead.
He's on 5/6 million a year. We shouldn't really have to play thankful....he should earn it.


I get what you're saying and I understand that but bringing success in the past is absolutely no bearing on bringing it in the future the way this game has changed.
He requires a shed load of money. Simple as that. I know this and so do we all.
He is not guaranteed anything even with a shed load but it might give him a leg up into a flirt with a top 4 fight or if the gods shone down and lit up the club to say " IT'S YOU" then yeah, who knows.
However, to do this requires more than the club can afford and far more of an owner than Ashley to dare to provide it.
Ashley's not stupid, he knows the post code and he knows who the elites are.

As long as football stays as it is, we will always yoyo in the premier league but we certainly won't be the only ones.
Only the blank cheque brigade can change all that but we lose the real identity of the club once that happens.


I get that as well.
I might not be seeing the real genius in Rafa. Maybe I'm looking too far ahead at what his game appears to look like for me.
However, how long does he get and how much money is enough for him to be deemed backed enough to give us fans what we deserve....which is the very least, entertaining football for 90 plus minutes on average of just once a week.
Surely that's not too much to ask.
Do we andure dire football and go down with the mindset of putting Rafa on a pedestal saying he's done fantastic with a championship squad?
It makes no sense.
The man is paid a kings ransom to enhance what he has at his disposal.
All I see are players that are generally pinned down from their potential but coached into defensive minded, first and foremost battlers with effort as the key before anything else.

If we get relegated Rafa appears to have a get out of jail free card for blame.
If we stay up Rafa has the freedom of the city type thing. the man who saved us and only Rafa could do it because now we all see why his odd decisions came into play.

The man literally cannot lose and appears to be able to get away with anything.
I'd love for it all to be shoved into my face but he needs to start now and change the way he's setting us up or we really are down and no amount of excuses is going to change that.


At this stage I don't want to see anything that goes against the grain.
The players need to be backed.
In fact I can see a lot more in those players and actually respect them for their efforts.
If Rafa let's them show their true potential then we will easily get out of trouble. I absolutely believe it 1 million per cent.

All it takes is the same mindset as the first half of games and we will amss well enough points.
Play the same way and we are gone....seriously.
And for me, Rafa will be to blame, just as he will be revered if he changes it up now and we escape.

He can't have it both ways.
It's not " look what you could have had" or " if only this" or "he can't work with what he has and expect to be successful".....it is what it is and 11 other clubs are doing the same with equal and sometimes worse squads than what we have and yet they're called PREMIER league clubs whilst we hang on to what we're told as in being a so called championship club with teh argument of being too good for the championship but not good enough for the premier league..
It batters my head, it really does.

A very good post, Ghost. Cheers for taking the time. I think we both get each other and respectfully disagree on certain areas whilst agreeing on other parts.

Generally, my hope for now is that we stay up, that Rafa is backed financially in the summer and that we see his true ability as a manager. If he spends a lot, and we are not improving or playing a more exciting style of football, I think he should be criticized.
These are all but's and if's though.

[pboromag]

if any manager spends a lot they should do well

a good manager will get more from what he has

i would say generally everyplayer apart from maybe one or two (lascelles and the lad in the middle )have gone backwards undder rafa as he isnt playigng to their strengths

even joselwho showed more in his first few games than he is now ,now he doesnt even looked bothered
ritchie is going backwards ,people can say he is champo but he has got worse as the season has gone on ,surely a decent mnager would have got some improvment or at least not taken him backwards
shelvey a few months agao some on here were thinking he was almost england material ,im sure they aint thinking that now
atsu was as good as the lad from chelsea is looking now .he doesnt look like anything he was a few months ago
murphy from norwich .hasnt improved at all had maybe two good games
the list goes on

im sorry but a decent champions league manager as some jokingly think rafa is would not see these players go backwards

thisis why i still think two more games for rafa and the hard decision will need to be made

ash usually gives it 10 games to save us

rafa and shearer

both failed
with better teams

[TheBigSausage]

why buy all the time
why not nurture and improve

isnt that what a manager on 5-7 mill is supposed to do

but nope same ols same old
the only way you can do anything is to spend as much as you can

why have a manager if all you want to do is buy the best or most expensive

how or when does the manager have to pull his sleeves up and get on with awhat he has got and show us what a class manager he is

Benitez loves shifting players ..look at his liverpool stats 59 bought and 72 moved on.. spending £230m and recouping £162m.. nurturing players aint his game.
And as for we need 16 points to stay up , looking at fixtures i can see 10 at a push cos for every surprise win theres a surprise defeat . lets hope 40 aint the target just cant see us reaching it unless Simani hits a purple patch

[ghostrider]

A very good post, Ghost. Cheers for taking the time. I think we both get each other and respectfully disagree on certain areas whilst agreeing on other parts.

Generally, my hope for now is that we stay up, that Rafa is backed financially in the summer and that we see his true ability as a manager. If he spends a lot, and we are not improving or playing a more exciting style of football, I think he should be criticized.
These are all but's and if's though.

Seeing as we're so close to the end of the season (12 games to go) I'll be happy to try and curb my frustration but I'll still need to call out when I think something's clearly not right just as much as I'll try and take more positives like I used to do.

I just don't find it too easy to balance the positives and negatives with negatives seemingly outgunning the positives in at least 70% of games and I'm being fairly generous with 30% positive.

I live in hope that , if we avoid the drop, then Rafa gets a fair pot to work with including who he wants to sell on.
It's hard to know what that number has to be because the transfers are literally going loop the loop and could blow us right out of the water whether it's a Rafa influence or an Ashley purse loosener.

The last thing I want to do is be negative.
I managed to stay positive right through Pardew's reign and before that.
McClaren set the frustration and negativity in because I was screaming for Ashley to sack him.

The positivity crept back upon Rafa's appointment so it hasn't always been like this.
I still had it 10 games into the season but I started to not enjoy the football even though we were scraping through games.
It was literally destroying my head and warping my mind ( not that it isn't already warped lol).

Like I said though, I'll accept that maybe I'm not seeing a Rafa master plan that has to be a cruel to be kind set up and crazy rotation to the extremes at times.
Ok, maybe we'll finish ultra fresh in the run in and batter teams down with superior fitness due to Rafa's genius rotation.

That's all I can think of but let's see.