...and Bradford City

[jimmyboldon]

Oh I should have added that we can have academy players here for 15 years and yet AM can say that some or most of them are not suitable for the first team and need to get out and play some 'mens' football in non league etc.

So the logic of that is why spend millions on academies and wait donkeys years to see if they are suitable when you can see thousands of players now today across the world of the right age group. OK some will argue that doing that would cost the club more money and then the question remains in HOW can non league afford most of their players and not even full time? Some will have benefactors but most don't..

Just to say that IF our club needs all these managers, why not get rid of the Pros and sign one or two more mangers and get them to play the matches...Win all round and they know the game better don't they...

I have to add that Garry Player one of the top Golfers the world has ever seen said when a coach can play Golf better than him, he will listen to them..OK a bit of a laugh but many top sportsmen have gone to the dogs the minute they took on a coach and that is true...Because they will try and alter the players basic instinct and natural ability and that is fact not opinion if anyone wants to look....Check the Wimbledon match courts to see where all the wear on the grass is after a few days...All behind the baseline and the rest of the court as green as grass! . Facts again, not opinion!

Re the tennis. Why do you think that is the case Mike?
I’ll tell you.
The grass is different to the era of Laver, Newcombe etc, slower. The balls are of a reduced pressure, hence slower. This means that the returner has more time to play a passing shot. If you try to play a serve volley game you will be passed on most points and lose.
And that’s not taking into account the improvement in racquet technology and increase in size.
But don’t let the facts get in the way.

[MeForCrewe]

Just on the golf theme. Rory McIlroy just won the Fed Ex Cup, worth a few million. He attributes his rise in form to his greatly improved putting, which he credits Brad Faxon for, who he engaged as his putting coach. Just a thought.

[gazan]

Oh I should have added that we can have academy players here for 15 years and yet AM can say that some or most of them are not suitable for the first team and need to get out and play some 'mens' football in non league etc.

So the logic of that is why spend millions on academies and wait donkeys years to see if they are suitable when you can see thousands of players now today across the world of the right age group. OK some will argue that doing that would cost the club more money and then the question remains in HOW can non league afford most of their players and not even full time? Some will have benefactors but most don't..

Just to say that IF our club needs all these managers, why not get rid of the Pros and sign one or two more mangers and get them to play the matches...Win all round and they know the game better don't they...

I have to add that Garry Player one of the top Golfers the world has ever seen said when a coach can play Golf better than him, he will listen to them..OK a bit of a laugh but many top sportsmen have gone to the dogs the minute they took on a coach and that is true...Because they will try and alter the players basic instinct and natural ability and that is fact not opinion if anyone wants to look....Check the Wimbledon match courts to see where all the wear on the grass is after a few days...All behind the baseline and the rest of the court as green as grass! . Facts again, not opinion!

Okay, I take the bait. Several points: when did this 'golden era' end (give us a date with an event to mark it). ;
I don't know how 'naturally' good at golf you were but condemning all coaching on the basis of a your couple of hours with a club pro is hardly scientific evidence, is it? (I had quite a few crap teachers during my schooldays, but I would hardly suggest that means they're all bad and that teaching should be abolished)
Where does this idea of half empty stadiums come from? The Alex are getting as good a crowd as when I arrived in Crewe in 1966. However, 10 years later the crowds were just around 2,000 (as I don't know your chronological parameters, I don't know if the 70s were in your 'golden age' or not!);
Dario Gradi was a coach and totally transformed the club and its approach to player development - are you saying we would have better off without him?
You continually ignore the idea that coaching improves the overall majority of play and cherry pick individuals like Greaves and Best as having natural talent. On this latter part I can go along with your opinion, to some extent i.e. coaching MIGHT inhibit the abilities of certain very talented individuals. However, the vast majority of sports people do not qualify for that excessively small group. (As an aside, extreme talent MAY also be part of an overall personality package. Your favourite examples both came to untimely ends through lack of self- discipline).
As for academy graduates needing time playing games with men, I don't see why that's an issue. It's all about theory and practice and gaining real world experience. Very few people go through training or education and immediately slot into top jobs.
There are other issues here but hopefully these responses provide food for thought.
I also want to say that you are fully entitled to your opinion and can express it as many times as you wish. It is not helpful when people refer to them as 'claptrap' or other meaningless terms. However, I do understand the frustration of reading the same thing relentlessly with no evidence of taking other arguments on board.
I realise this is a long post but I wanted to engage (not dismiss) you in the hope that conversations, and not catcalling, can continue. If this doesn't work then I have to impose some self-discipline myself and resist responding to inflexible positions.
Thanks

[Timmy58]

Okay, I take the bait. Several points: when did this 'golden era' end (give us a date with an event to mark it). ;
I don't know how 'naturally' good at golf you were but condemning all coaching on the basis of a your couple of hours with a club pro is hardly scientific evidence, is it? (I had quite a few crap teachers during my schooldays, but I would hardly suggest that means they're all bad and that teaching should be abolished)
Where does this idea of half empty stadiums come from? The Alex are getting as good a crowd as when I arrived in Crewe in 1966. However, 10 years later the crowds were just around 2,000 (as I don't know your chronological parameters, I don't know if the 70s were in your 'golden age' or not!);
Dario Gradi was a coach and totally transformed the club and its approach to player development - are you saying we would have better off without him?
You continually ignore the idea that coaching improves the overall majority of play and cherry pick individuals like Greaves and Best as having natural talent. On this latter part I can go along with your opinion, to some extent i.e. coaching MIGHT inhibit the abilities of certain very talented individuals. However, the vast majority of sports people do not qualify for that excessively small group. (As an aside, extreme talent MAY also be part of an overall personality package. Your favourite examples both came to untimely ends through lack of self- discipline).
As for academy graduates needing time playing games with men, I don't see why that's an issue. It's all about theory and practice and gaining real world experience. Very few people go through training or education and immediately slot into top jobs.
There are other issues here but hopefully these responses provide food for thought.
I also want to say that you are fully entitled to your opinion and can express it as many times as you wish. It is not helpful when people refer to them as 'claptrap' or other meaningless terms. However, I do understand the frustration of reading the same thing relentlessly with no evidence of taking other arguments on board.
I realise this is a long post but I wanted to engage (not dismiss) you in the hope that conversations, and not catcalling, can continue. If this doesn't work then I have to impose some self-discipline myself and resist responding to inflexible positions.
Thanks

It does become hard work trying to justify the bleedin obvious . I mean, every sport including golf has coaches and yes, i imagine some may benefit more than others. The idea that Dave Artel was not a good football manager because he couldn't cope with doing everything is bizarre in the extreme. Just because the revered Bill Nicholson did it and won the league and the FA cup just really justify the argument. Did Spurs win the youth cup or the under 18 and under 23 leagues? Did he go and watch all the games? Did those competitions even exist then?

It is also perfectly reasonable to send our Academy players out on loan to get experience playing in "men's football" as playing against other Academy teams isn't quite the same as the rough and tumble of the EFL or, indeed, the Premier league. There are odd instances of young players going straight from Academy to first team in the higher leagues but the norm is that Prem and Championship clubs send their kids out to clubs like ours for experience. We send ours out to National League and below. That tends to sort out whether they will make it or not.

No doubt the argument will continue over the ensuing months and years!

[frogpole]

Been doing a bit of digging, because I clearly remember Malcolm Allison being coach at Man City ...

Apparently Allison played for West Ham from 1951-57 ...

Found this quote from Bobby Moore ...

"I'd been a professional for two and a half months and Malcolm had taught me everything I know.... When Malcolm was coaching schoolboys he took a liking to me when I don't think anyone else at West Ham saw anything special in me... I looked up to the man. It's not too strong to say I loved him." ...

Please note the phrase 'coaching schoolboys'

As a coach, he is remembered for assisting manager Joe Mercer in the transformation of the team he supported as a young boy – Manchester City. During the 1960s and early 1970s, Allison won six major trophies in seven years with Mercer ...

Wanna finish on a lighter note, coz Allison was known as a bit of a Big Mouth - it was rumoured they wanted him as England Team Coach, they were gonna take his teeth out and put seats in

Keep smilin'

[jimmyboldon]

OED definition of claptrap is … absurd or nonsensical talk or ideas.
Can’t see the reason for the opprobrium.
But no more rising to the bait for me, it’s tedious on all levels.

[out0lunch]

I'm still trying to get my head around Mike's 5 forwards, What was the formation then 5 0 5 or 4 1 5

I am still trying to figure it out. Mike pray tell and put me out of my misery

[MeForCrewe]

OED definition of claptrap is … absurd or nonsensical talk or ideas.
Can’t see the reason for the opprobrium.
But no more rising to the bait for me, it’s tedious on all levels.

I think we've all been sucked in again on a thread that the subject is the Bradford City game.

[MikeSB]

I think we've all been sucked in again on a thread that the subject is the Bradford City game.

I did it again....

No, you are right, thread hijacked again...but its a football forum and so its better than not having one at all I suppose..

We all love this club and we should try and find the best we can no matter what the situation is..I thought we would lose against BC and we got a point and think listening to AM he is coming across in a great way actually and think we could do better than I thought and hope we can get a settled team going. I forgot how bad this team was and really was in some decades past but the club is still a professional club despite all that has happened. Its a surprise Barrow being second in this league and if I get time I will post on the last time I went there around 1960 and I never saw another Crewe fan there that very foggy day when we won 4-3 or 3-2 and I never saw any of the goals lol..I went on the train and went to the pictures in Preston on the way back as no trains for 3 hours...

Just to add that when we had 5 forwards I cannot recall where they stood but there were 5...I know we have 3 forwards now sometime and two flying wing halfs and that makes the same 5 hey?

I have to say that I cannot stand defensive football since that Don Revie was alive and ruined the game...

It was a wonder seeing Frank Lord getting the ball from Ron Smith the winger and Frank just headed the ball into the net for 8 hat tricks and that takes some doing...Must have been playing teams with 10 forwards...

[out0lunch]

I did it again....

No, you are right, thread hijacked again...but its a football forum and so its better than not having one at all I suppose..

We all love this club and we should try and find the best we can no matter what the situation is..I thought we would lose against BC and we got a point and think listening to AM he is coming across in a great way actually and think we could do better than I thought and hope we can get a settled team going. I forgot how bad this team was and really was in some decades past but the club is still a professional club despite all that has happened. Its a surprise Barrow being second in this league and if I get time I will post on the last time I went there around 1960 and I never saw another Crewe fan there that very foggy day when we won 4-3 or 3-2 and I never saw any of the goals lol..I went on the train and went to the pictures in Preston on the way back as no trains for 3 hours...

Just to add that when we had 5 forwards I cannot recall where they stood but there were 5...I know we have 3 forwards now sometime and two flying wing halfs and that makes the same 5 hey?

I have to say that I cannot stand defensive football since that Don Revie was alive and ruined the game...

It was a wonder seeing Frank Lord getting the ball from Ron Smith the winger and Frank just headed the ball into the net for 8 hat tricks and that takes some doing...Must have been playing teams with 10 forwards...

I see so there were not 5 forwards, so why say it when it is not fact.