OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

This will be an interesting thread to revisit when Derby have 37% possession and still beat Villa 2-0. Mind you that might depend on there being 30% of the game when nobody has possession and the ball is kept by the crowd.

[MadAmster]

Usually comes after February.

You really don’t get it do you? It is an irreconcilable fact that only a little over one third of the people voted for it...about the same as the Brexit Party and UKIP are apparently on target to achieve again between them following yesterday’s elections.

Thankfully we should all have something much more entertaining to think about by the time those results are announced but please stop calling 37%...’the people’...it’s simply and demonstrably untrue.

rA. The differenes do seem irreconcilable. 63% of those eligible to vote didn't vote Leave. 67% of those eligible didn't vote Remain. The two positions are equally (ir)relevant.

What Remainers should be worried about is that it is highly likely that whoever the new PM is, is likely to be a Brexiteer. That will genuinely put the cat among the pigeons.

There are, IMO, 3 options available. One or more might be unacceptable to your self, others might be unacceptable to others but these are the only options on the table as far as I can see.

1. The new PM manages to tweak May's deal and get it through Parliament. That should be unpalatable to everybody as it is a bad deal. I have referred to it in the past as the Hokey Cokey deal. More in than out and shaking it all about. It only has the UK OUT of the decision making process and IN everything else. No say but still pay (both the divorce bill and an annual "subscription")

2. No Deal. That closes lots of doors but opens up others. Lots of trade deals to be brokered.

3. No Brexit. Making the whole exercise a complete and utter waste of time and money.

I think your preferences in order (and you do have to select all 3 in oredr....), rA, are 3, 1, 2

1 is awful. 2 is no better or maybe slightly so and 3 would give te UK the chance to move the EU away from all the things we don't want. The Euro. The EU Army. etc etc etc etc.

I fear, however, it was too late 20 years ago to stop the headlong rush to a US of E.

[Andy_Faber]

if we’ve learned anything in the last three years it’s that Brexit isn’t deliverable without making us all, except Farage, worse off.

How CAN you know that Ra? If you have a crystal ball please attach a photo to your next post.

I had a similar conversation with a long-standing Facebook acquaintance and his bunch of sycophants and over the course of maybe a week around the time of the London March, never got a single definite answer out of him. There seems to be some strange fog over the nation (leave and remain) that just brings to mind a bunch of toddlers stamping their feet and wailing because mummy has run out of sweeties.

[ramAnag]

How CAN you know that Ra? If you have a crystal ball please attach a photo to your next post.

I had a similar conversation with a long-standing Facebook acquaintance and his bunch of sycophants and over the course of maybe a week around the time of the London March, never got a single definite answer out of him. There seems to be some strange fog over the nation (leave and remain) that just brings to mind a bunch of toddlers stamping their feet and wailing because mummy has run out of sweeties.

You’re right Andy...I don’t KNOW that and I have no crystal ball, but I do listen and the clear majority of those who are better informed than either me or you, in the worlds of both business and international political relationships, come down firmly on the side of ‘Remain’.

Beyond that, my particular argument with MoP - and all the Brexiteers for that matter - is their repeated claim that Brexit represents the ‘will of the people’. It simply doesn’t and no matter how tiresome it has become to say so...in the event of a binary choice the support of 37% cannot ever be considered to be the ‘will of the people’.

The argument that it is undemocratic to go against the ‘will of the people’ is all those on the Right - from May to Farage to Yoxley Lennon - have left, but it isn’t true and although I, as you know, have little faith in the ability of the electorate to resolve this matter sensibly it is interesting that it is those on the Right, while howling on about democracy being compromised, who are most reluctant to accept the need for a second (democratic) referendum now that the truths are out and circumstances have changed.

MA...you too are right in your interpretation of how I would exercise those three choices...glad that, not for the first time, we agree.

P.S. Just borrowed a crystal ball from the strange old lady next door...it says Derby will win on penalties at Wembley.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"while howling on about democracy being compromised, who are most reluctant to accept the need for a second (democratic) referendum now that the truths are out and circumstances have changed."

Well we have just about had a second referendum yesterday and the probable outcome is much the same as the first one, ie committed leavers are expected to outnumber the committed remainers - leaving the "dont knows" of the two main parties representing the non voters in the first run though.

Bearing in mind that the vast majority of the "committed remainers" fall under the SNP banner, Id say youve still got a balance of pro leave in England in this equivalent of 2nd referendum. Those voters have heard three more years logic (almost) and seen the total ****wits in charge get nowhere, yet still seem intent on leave.

Id say remain have not shone in the semi second referendum either

[Andy_Faber]

it is interesting that it is those on the Right, while howling on about democracy being compromised, who are most reluctant to accept the need for a second (democratic) referendum now that the truths are out and circumstances have changed.

Be careful what you wish for. There’s a line from a song I may have used here before, by ABC as it happens, that sums up the danger inherent in a rerun - you are exposing the country to ‘the silent majority, seen but never heard’.

[ramAnag]

Be careful what you wish for. There’s a line from a song I may have used here before, by ABC as it happens, that sums up the danger inherent in a rerun - you are exposing the country to ‘the silent majority, seen but never heard’.

Appreciate all that, Andy and I don’t actually ‘wish for’ a second referendum on the basis that I’ve always thought the whole matter too complex for Joe Public to decide upon via the mechanism of any referendum. It might however just provide a way forward seeing as the, imo ridiculous, precedent has been set.

What I said was that it is ‘interesting’ that those right wing supporters of Brexit seem to form the strongest opposition to the possibility of a second Referendum despite their claims about democracy. Wonder why.

[Manofpride]

What I said was that it is ‘interesting’ that those right wing supporters of Brexit seem to form the strongest opposition to the possibility of a second Referendum despite their claims about democracy. Wonder why.

Wonder why? We've had one and won. It's like having a winner in the Grand National and the bookie not paying out because he didn't like the outcome.

[ramAnag]

Wonder why? We've had one and won. It's like having a winner in the Grand National and the bookie not paying out because he didn't like the outcome.

More like having a winner in the Grand National, then finding out the jockey/owner broke the rules but still not fancying the prospect of a fair rerun.

[Manofpride]

The people have spoken again! Farage a clean sweep! Leave means leave it's what the people want!!!