OT Border Control State of Emergency

[mygiddypant]

All well and good, as long as we ignore the following;

Starmer is a proven liar who has successfully disenfranchised a huge swathe of traditional Labour supporters so he's blown it. Meanwhile, Jezza looks set to eat even further into the few remaining delusional Labour voters.


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Says the Trump/Farage supporter

[frogmiller]

If Reform don't produce? Don't produce what? Based on policies that they have launced so far, what are they likely to produce? You can certainly say that they can offer that will use freedom from some international laws to reduce the small boats crossings and then you could say that the mass deportation of low and middle skilled migrant workers may produce a very tiny fraction in the number of black and brown faces we see in our neighbourhoods. Is that all you want them to produce? Surely as a sensible citizen, you would want them to produce a comprehensive, coherent and fully funded plan to fill the low and middle skills vacancies that would be left behind, that are essential to our lives and the economy? Where do I find this from Reform?

Totally agree there are a large number of people focused on the immigration situation who are very vocal and very unhappy. Likewise, there are a lot of people, loud and vocal on the left leaving labour to join the Green Party or whatever Corbyn's project becomes - this would be the first time that there has been a mass movement alternative to the left of the labour party (and in true left wing tradition, look like splitting each other in two just when they needed to unite! But that's another story!).

But in the midst of all of these grand statements from the right and left sides, there were 10 council elections last week - across the country, mainly in blue wall seats, but also former Labour seat of Ashton in Preston. Predictably Tories were wiped out but not by Reform but the Lib Dems! If this movement of which you speak is so prominent why weren't these voters flocking to them instead?

I think the huge issue for Reform (as it was with Corbyn's Labour) is that the closer to a general election we get to a general election, the more you have to present a whole cross section of what you intend to do (and be fairly and unfairly cross examined by media interests, some of whom hwill be protecting their own vested interests) and for the most part voters will have enough of an understanding of the fact that above all, you need people in charge who know not just how to manage one issue, but the whole economy, industry, education, health, infrastructure etc etc. Again, I agree that there are a lot of people out there that are willing to vote for Farage as much as a '**** You!' to how they feel their lives are not being taken into account with politics, and that's understandable. But I think the majority will know that things could get a lot, lot worse. Unless Reform present a more coherent, fully rounded detail of their intentions, in a way that does make sense and add up, then I suspect that they too will come apart like Corbyn, finishing off with panicked, desperate manifesto pledges that became increasingly comical.

Labour - my party you say? On a personal level, I have been a green member since the early 00s and am watching the new leader with interest. I did join labour in 2016 as well though and am still holding that, but the wife has interestingly switched her Labour membership to the greens. Both of us feel disappointed with Labour but can't say I'm surprised as Starmer showed in his leadership bid to become leader how willing he is to take whatever policy stance it takes to gaim control and power. I feel they lack true political conviction to their policies but, having read more roundedly into politics in recent years, I am in sympathy witht them, and also those conservatives before them in knowing how ridiculously hard it is to try to make everything that you want to do work, especiall when there is no clear mandate from the public to better fund what we are crying out for. This got me thinking, to be fair to Labour (and also as a nod to New Labour who I didn't like at the time but I can retrospectively give credit for achievements on some aspects) I looked up a summary of achivements against their manifesto so far:

https://fullfact.org/government-tracker/

It's boring I know, but when you look at the full, rounded deatail that goes into manage all of the things in society we take for granted, that a party puts into a manifesto and then if fortunate enough to win, has to manage the full range of things that keep things ticking, things that are mainly taken for granted, it is jaw dropping and is perhaps taken for granted by many. Maybe not by Kent County Council now! But I don't see how single issue politics (for a I can't see any other clear issues Reform are promoting) can do everything we need, any more than a Green party manifesto pledging to simply ban petrol cars and deep sea mining (not saing that's all they are promising!).

Excuse me Raging I haven’t read all of what you have written there but I will.

My comment about Reform producing was meant on what I can see and think about it.

There has always been political division in the Uk but today the divide is far greater than it has ever been. It is viscous sand toxic and I do not think that there is anyone capable to unite the country.

I is not nice to watch from the outside but it seems that Reform are likely to form the next government or at least a part of it.

If they let the people down in the same way that this labour government has then I doubt many millions of people in the UK will completely give up on politics.

[Eternal Optimist]

Says the Trump/Farage supporter

That's the spirit. When all else fails, you can't beat a bit of argumentum ad hominem, eh?

After all, it worked a tasty treat in the Brexit debates...

[mygiddypant]

That's the spirit. When all else fails, you can't beat a bit of argumentum ad hominem, eh?

After all, it worked a tasty treat in the Brexit debates...

Some people, with brains, could see the result of a vote for Brexit. Idiots voted the way Farage and Johnson told them to.

Now they regret it -

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articl...tand-on-brexit

[Eternal Optimist]

Thanks for the confirmation.

[ragingpup]

All well and good, as long as we ignore the following;

Starmer is a proven liar who has successfully disenfranchised a huge swathe of traditional Labour supporters so he's blown it. Meanwhile, Jezza looks set to eat even further into the few remaining delusional Labour voters.

The Tories don't yet realise it but we're talking Dead Man Walking here.

The Greens have appointed a failed Tit-Whisperer yet they expect to be taken seriously.

Reform will win a massive majority, simply by virtue of them NOT being Labour, Tories or LibDems.

These data are already more than a month old, and the situation for the Uni-Party has worsened further since then...

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/...ipoll_20251015

Fair analysis but any idea why, of the 10 council elections held last week together with the Caerphilly election yesterday, Reform only won one of the 11?

[Eternal Optimist]

OK, I give in. Why was it?

[ragingpup]

OK, I give in. Why was it?

Because more people voted for the other party

[Eternal Optimist]

Ta.

Next year the election system in Wales will be P.R.. Do you think that might have an impact on Reform's success/failure?

[ragingpup]

Ta.

Next year the election system in Wales will be P.R.. Do you think that might have an impact on Reform's success/failure?

If the voting turns out to be similar with left wing PC taking a small majority over the hard right Reform, then obviously Reform will have a greater say and presence that FPTP. From a point of view of things getting done though, I suspect that most politician's time might be spent bickering and blocking rather than getting **** done, so not sure it will be better for the country as a whole.